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Madara's made a BIG mistake

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Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:47 am

Although I understand Madara's strong desire to feel alive and young again, without having to be on drip, to hide and becoming old in a hole or to fight in a zombie state, I think he chose the wrong strategy and that will lead him to his end. He is now mortal and vulnerable to his enemies' attacks. Of course, I could imagine him inflicting serious damages to the alliance but what was the point of becoming alive again? The way he easily defeated the Gokage as an Edo Tensei showed that he was powerful enough.

To become the new Juubi's Jin? He could eventually seal some of the Bijuus but I don't think that the alliance will allow him to get all of them. I am really curious to know what are the advantages for him to become alive again because I have the feeling that it was a way for him to be like he was before and that was more a whim than anything else...

Moreover, there is something which is still bugging me: I'm not sure that Obito is completely gone. He has been the main villain so far and the fact that he could stay alive in moments where he could have disappeared (while becoming the Juubi's Jin, becoming like the So6P instead of letting the Juubi take over him) showed that he has/had a strong will which was linked to his constant thoughts about Rin.

I'm quoting Yamasaki Akaiko (chapter 656 discussion thread)

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:Oh, Madara will be eventually "converted" just like everyone else. The only issue is how much damage is he going to do before that happens.

Black Zetsu is Madara's will. Black Zetsu can't be killed as long as Madara is around.

The only statement that caused pause is Madara talking about being able to fight better. Considering all the damage he did with a "handi-cap" as he's basically calling it, I'm expecting a really evil cliffhanger this year before Shonen Jump takes off for a couple of weeks.
I like this idea of Black Zetsu being Madara's will, that's why I imagined a scenario (I don't know if it could be counted as a prediction), that Madara might have absorbed Obito's life but he might have absorbed Obito's will btw. I could imagine that after inflicting some damages, Madara won't be able to control his body the way he wants because Obito will start to fight him from inside and that will help the alliance to finish Madara.

What do you think guys? Does it make sense? or Do you think it was a good idea that Madara preferred to become alive again now without the advantages inherent to the Edo Tensei state?
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Fallere825 on Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:54 pm

I'm with you on this one. I'm not too sure of the benefits of this rebirth either. Maybe it is a case where he chose to do it now, because even if he were to beat the alliance (edo mode) he still wouldn't be able to absorb the Juubi and activate the IT. Therefore before Obito sacrificed himself, Madara "was forced" to use the opportunity to revive himself before he missed it, and now he has no choice but to beat them in a mortal state. Which considering all the variables, despite his power, shouldn't be very likely imo

Also maybe it could be a case where, now that he is mortal, he can now fight at full strength? I remember the 1st and 2nd saying something along the lines of: "this time we were brought back with more power but we're still not 100%". I'm not sure of all the mechanics behind it but maybe its a case where an edo version of yourself is not as strong as the original living you? If this is the case then Madara would've sacrificed technical immortality for 100% power and as previously mentioned the ability to absorb the Juubi.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:05 pm

^Even though Madara is super powerful and alive now, I don't see or can't imagine him catching all the Bijuus and becoming the new Juubi's Jin. He could eventually use his clones to catch them. I'm just hoping he will make a better use of the Rinnegan than Obito.



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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Fallere825 on Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:13 pm

Agreed...he shouldn't be able to absorb any of the beasts in the middle of this fight. As for the Rinnegan, I'm pretty sure he will make better use of it.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:34 am

Actually, something came to my mind: if Madara needed to be and to feel alive again, he could have done it before. I mean, when he fought the Gokage and when they were on the ground defenseless, he could have absorbed the life of one of them.

Why did he prefer to absorb Obito's one? I have the feeling that it's linked to the fact that the latter was the Juubi's Jin and received a special body and that has been confirmed by the last chapter (656) when Kurama explained that the Juubi's host won't lose his life like a normal Jinchuuriki if the Bijuus are extracted from him.

That's why I think that Madara got something out of this special body inherent to the Juubi's Jin but at the same time and that's a scenario I still keep in mind, he might have absorbed Obito's will btw. Without knowing it, he might have kind of contaminated himself with Obito's will as well. But this scenario is only a possibility and I might be very wrong about it.

The problem is that Obito's strong will or even obsession has always come into play and every time I thought he was gone, that was unfortunately not the case. As the main villain so far, I would not find it so crazy if something like that happened. Anyway, all these panels spent on him might have influenced my feelings regarding the story...
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Fallere825 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:16 pm

That's a very interesting theory concerning Obito's will. As for Madara absorbing the gokage's life force, I don't think this was possible. He was revived using rinne tensei if i'm not mistaken. Therefore Obito was the only one he could've used to do this, as he(Obito) is the only person with the rinnegan. It wasn't so much that he absorbed Obito's life but, more forced him to sacrifice it to execute the justsu...if you get what i'm saying.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:30 pm

^ Then, in the last chapter, Black Zetsu helped him by "replacing" Obito when the latter wanted to perform Rinnei Tensei to turn it to Madara's advantage.

I am re-reading this chapter and I think you are absolutely right on the fact that Obito was forced by him to sacrifice himself for him to be alive again. But I still think this is the reason which is going to lead to Madara's end.


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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Fallere825 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:24 pm

^ Very well could be, for the the longest while now I've been expecting Obito to play a part in Madara's defeat; so I can see something like that happening. Only time will tell

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:15 pm

Madara tried to force Obito to use Rinne Tensei on him in 637. Madara wasn't successful then because Obito was still strong enough to resist him. Obito was even strong enough to resist the Juubi trying to take him over at the time. That's why Madara did need to thank Naruto for wearing down Obito's will so much that he could be successful using Obito.

If Madara could have removed himself from Sai's seal, then yes, this can be seen as a mistake. If Madara was not going to be able to get out of Sai's seal, then he needed the power boost that he's supposedly getting to salvage his plans. Besides, Madara was not seemingly able to beat Hashirama. So, there's no way Madara was going to be able to handle all the Edo Kages plus Naruto, Sasuke, & basically everyone else coming for him, particularly if he is susceptible to being sealed.

It's only a mistake at the end of the day if Kishimoto actually has him killed off to stop him (because Madara was about to be stopped seemingly by a combination of Hashirama, Naruto, & Sai), which was previously impossible. If Kishimoto does his usual and Madara gets "converted" to be stopped, then even though he's mortal, it's not going to affect his ability to do what he's attempting to do--and will actually make it "better" due to a power boost.
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:20 pm

^ Actually, Madara being alive again gives him the opportunity to make a good use of his Uchiha/Senju mixed blood (paralyzing Hashirama in chapter 657). I am expecting some summons from him too.

The key was in his blood and he needed to be alive again to open the door to power. Still, I can't picture myself him getting "converted" and I'm still thinking that the way he had become stronger might be the cause of his end in the future.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:31 am

Hashirama just said in the latest chapter that Madara had gained back his full strength (which I find ridiculous considering he doesn't even has his eyes back yet, but that's besides the point). Apparently, the edo tensei body gave Madara some sort of handicap that didn't allow him to use his full strength, it wasn't just to become the Juubi's jinchuriki that he wanted a live body. However, I think this needs to be explained better, because the Edo Tensei body gave Madara an "infinite" supply of chakra, and that should've been more than useful to him. And edo bodies do bleed, remember Itachi bled from his eye when he used Amaterasu on the crow that had Shisui's eye. I don't think Madara made a mistake in coming back to life, but I do think we have to be told exactly what it is he gained.

Also, he didn't absorb Obito's life, he just had him use Rinne Tensei on him.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:47 am

Strawberry wrote:Hashirama just said in the latest chapter that Madara had gained back his full strength (which I find ridiculous considering he doesn't even has his eyes back yet, but that's besides the point). Apparently, the edo tensei body gave Madara some sort of handicap that didn't allow him to use his full strength, it wasn't just to become the Juubi's jinchuriki that he wanted a live body. However, I think this needs to be explained better, because the Edo Tensei body gave Madara an "infinite" supply of chakra, and that should've been more than useful to him. And edo bodies do bleed, remember Itachi bled from his eye when he used Amaterasu on the crow that had Shisui's eye. I don't think Madara made a mistake in coming back to life, but I do think we have to be told exactly what it is he gained.

Also, he didn't absorb Obito's life, he just had him use Rinne Tensei on him.
The eye bleed I think it is more linked to an Uchiha's ability. With Senju's cells, he might have become alive to show the extent of it. As an Edo Tensei, Madara was not performing Senjutsu but now, since he has become alive,even without eyes, he is able to fight properly and that thanks to it.
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:29 am

^ That might be so, but Madara is an Uchiha too. Some edos bleed and others don't, it just doesn't feel right to me for some reason. Furthermore, Hashirama didn't know of this Senju + Uchiha power Madara has, and he still wanted to stop him from reviving and was the one who said Madara is back at full power. That leads me to think the full extent of Madara's power is not related to the Senju, though obviously that is a major plus. It's just that the Edo Tensei handicapped Madara's abilities (not the ones related to the Senju Hashirama didn't know about, but the ones he knew about and wanted to stop Madara from gaining back), and I think it should be explained why and show the powers he supposedly gained back.
 

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:39 am

Strawberry wrote:^ That might be so, but Madara is an Uchiha too. Some edos bleed and others don't, it just doesn't feel right to me for some reason. Furthermore, Hashirama didn't know of this Senju + Uchiha power Madara has, and he still wanted to stop him from reviving and was the one who said Madara is back at full power. That leads me to think the full extent of Madara's power is not related to the Senju, though obviously that is a major plus. It's just that the Edo Tensei handicapped Madara's abilities (not the ones related to the Senju Hashirama didn't know about, but the ones he knew about and wanted to stop Madara from gaining back), and I think it should be explained why and show the powers he supposedly gained back.
 
Hashirama might have felt his limitations in Edo Tensei's state to have said something like that and he is the one who knows Madara the best for having been his friend and faced him in the past.
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:45 am

^ I'm not following that logic; that would be under the assumption that Hashirama has some sort of ability we haven't seen he has. On your second point though, I agree. Hashirama knows Madara's PAST full abilities, and that's what he wanted to stop since the beginning even before he got to the battlefield. That's what Madara got back. However, the full extent of Madara's powers together with the Senju's powers is something Hashirama didn't know about, and we could see he didn't sense that because he was surprised when he saw his face on Madara's chest. Hashirama doesn't have any special abilities to sense anyone's limitations as far as we know, he was referring to the full extent of Madara's powers in the past that he knows so well.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:00 am

Strawberry wrote:^ I'm not following that logic; that would be under the assumption that Hashirama has some sort of ability we haven't seen he has. On your second point though, I agree. Hashirama knows Madara's PAST full abilities, and that's what he wanted to stop since the beginning even before he got to the battlefield. That's what Madara got back. However, the full extent of Madara's powers together with the Senju's powers is something Hashirama didn't know about, and we could see he didn't sense that because he was surprised when he saw his face on Madara's chest. Hashirama doesn't have any special abilities to sense anyone's limitations as far as we know, he was referring to the full extent of Madara's powers in the past that he knows so well.
I think that Hashirama knows himself very well that he can tell what is the difference of being an Edo Tensei or a living being in terms of ability etc. That has nothing to do with whatsoever ability but more with the difference he could feel as a person.

"Hashirama doesn't have any special abilities to sense anyone's limitation"?

Then what about Sennjutsu? Naruto himself could feel everybody when he came to face Pein and realized that Kakashi was absent, not knowing the the latter was dead. Therefore, I do think that Hashirama might be able to sense things thanks to his Sennjutsu's abilities and thanks to his own experience.
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:35 am

^ That's the thing, you're confusing things. Yes, senjutsu gives the user sensing abilities, correct, and Hashirama has shown some sensing abilities himself, BUT there is a huge difference between sensing someone's chakra, and "sensing a limitation" they might have. That's unheard of. Whatever limitations Hashirama knew Madara had, was because of his own knowledge of Madara's powers, there's no indication that he "sensed" Madara wasn't at full power.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:01 am

Strawberry wrote:^ That's the thing, you're confusing things. Yes, senjutsu gives the user sensing abilities, correct, and Hashirama has shown some sensing abilities himself, BUT there is a huge difference between sensing someone's chakra, and "sensing a limitation" they might have. That's unheard of. Whatever limitations Hashirama knew Madara had, was because of his own knowledge of Madara's powers, there's no indication that he "sensed" Madara wasn't at full power.
Sorry, maybe it's you who are confusing things. Hashirama might have sensed the difference of being alive and being an Edo Tensei according to himself, not Madara. He did not know that Madara had his cells implanted in him. He thought it was better to finish Madara right now in his Edo Tensei state because Hashirama himself, again, might have felt some limitations in that state, taking himself as example.
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:48 am

^ Irielo, my friend, but that's precisely the thing. You said that Madara needed a living body because edo tensei prevented him from showcasing the full power of the Uchiha + Senju. But I have to disagree with that notion, because Hashirama said Madara wasn't at full power, and like you mentioned, Hashirama didn't know about Madara having his cells. Hence, his comment about Madara not being at full power wasn't connected to Madara not being able to use the Senju + Uchiha powers correctly, but rather it was connected to Madara's full Uchiha powers that are not related to the Senju.

THAT'S what I question, why is it that the edo tensei didn't let him showcase his Uchiha powers. Though I've already seen some other theories around and am leaning towards one of them, but I still believe it's better if we get an official explanation in canon.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:43 am

Dear Strawberry, what I am trying to explain is that given that Hashirama realized that as an Edo Tensei he was himself (Hashirama Senju) limited, he assumed that Madara was limited by the Edo Tensei as well. He simply ignored the fact that Madara had his cells. It was a logic thought from Hashirama without considering a fact he did not know about.

Something like: "In this situation, I am limited. Therefore, my enemy who is in the same situation might be limited too".


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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:57 pm

No no, I know what you are saying, I just don't agree with it. Hashirama didn't need to assume anything because he knew Madara better than anyone. For all he knew, Madara's Edo Tensei was special and different from his own (which it was). The point was that the "limitation" he was referring to shouldn't be related to Madara being unable to control the Senju + Uchiha powers correctly like you said, but the comment comes from Hashirama's own experience. If Madara had showcased the abilities he had back in the day when he fought Hashirama, there was no need for Hashirama to comment on Madara getting his full power BACK, which means he got back something he had BEFORE but the edo tensei didn't let him use.

The point is, Hashirama's comments lead to believe Madara in his prime was stronger than Edo Madara, and whatever was holding him back wasn't just preventing him from using the Senju + Uchiha powers properly, but was also preventing him from unleashing his own full powers.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:45 am

^ I don't know if you'll agree on that but I think Kurama in the last chapter gave the answer to why Hashirama did not want Madara to be alive again. That was in fact because of this connexion between his blood and him summoning Kyuubi.

Link:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/659/5

If I can remember properly, someone told Sasuke once that he had to read the stone tablet of the Uchihas because of the revelations it contained regarding the Kyuubi. But it seems that this connexion Uchihas-Kyuubi extended to all the Bijuus and that leads me to go again as far as what might have happened between the So6P's sons, especially when the latter died.

Sorry, it's going a bit off-topic but that's where my thoughts went regarding that issue.
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:52 am

^ I Don't see it that way. Kurama has always felt threatened by Madara. Even when he encountered Sasuke in the beginning of Shippuden he said Sasuke's sinister chakra(?) reminded him of Madara. He also made a comment when Madara first got revived and he gave Naruto some of his chakra because he once again felt threatened by Madara. To me, Kurama's comment was nothing new, and it shouldn't relate to Hashirama at all but to Kurama himself and his fear of Madara.

However, the chapter did indeed give us an answer as to why Madara needed a living body.

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/659/9

And that was the Rinnegan. The Edo Tensei Rinnegan Madara had was fake, so he couldn't unleash its full power. Now that he has a living body and his real eye, he can summon the Gedo Mazo with it. With just one eye he's doing a lot of damage to the tailed beasts, when he gets both it'll be insane. The answer was always in his eyes, because obviously real eyes are much more powerful than fake ones.

And don't worry, I don't think this is off-topic at all. xD We are after all still discussing Madara's reasoning for wanting a living body and Hashirama's reasoning to stop it.

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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Irielo on Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:08 am

^I agree on this fact too but why did Kurama talk of Madara's blood this way: ok, he is afraid etc., but he clearly said that Madara could summon him in the past, thanks to it and I understand that it's the main reason lying behind his fears when it comes to Madara.

Regarding Hashirama's issue now. If the latter did not want Madara to be alive again, I don't think it was because of the Rinnegan because he did not know that Madara had his cells implanted in him, so he did not know that the latter's eyes evolved into the Rinnegan. Therefore, what Kurama said about Madara's "revolting blood" and his summoning makes more sense imo because this is what Hashirama had to face in the past and not a Madara with a Rinnegan.

Though, I admit that alive, Madara is making a very good use of the Rinnegan compared to Obito.
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Re: Madara's made a BIG mistake

Post by Strawberry on Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:50 am

^ But you're also forgetting Madara could summon Kurama while in Edo Tensei. The only reason his summoning didn't go through was because Naruto's seal was still strong. He didn't need a living body to summon Kurama, he just needed to get rid of the seal.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/10

Hashirama didn't know about the Rinnegan but he did know about the EMS. Either way, he knew Madara couldn't use his visual powers to their full extent, and eyes are the main source of Madara's power. With his original living eyes back, he's much more of a threat than he ever was as an Edo Tensei.

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