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Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

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Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Irielo on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:27 pm

I don't know what do you think about that but I found it good the way Naruto dealt with Nagato after having defeated the 6 Peins. Why?

Nagato himself was curious about Naruto because they were taught by the same sensei. For sure, Nagato main interest was to extract Kyuubi from Naruto but just the fact that he wanted to know his answer after telling him his story shows that he was opened to know more about Naruto.

Naruto did not experience what Nagato did. The latter after witnessing his parents' death and countless battles, after having himself participated in countless of them, after having lost countless friends and his best one, Yahiko, became jaded with time when he realized that the dream of peace he shared with Yahiko was not going to work out. Therefore, he came up with a radical solution: achieving peace through power and fear (Bijuu bomb).

Naruto after defeating Deva Pein came to him and Konan and although he had the desire to revenge for the destruction of the village and the death of his comrades and Senseis, Naruto chose the diplomatic way to deal with Nagato. I find it good because thanks to this talk, more informations about the lives of Yahiko, Konan and Nagato came to light. Yahiko was the first in the group whose goal was to become stronger in order one day to bring peace. He was a role model for his two friends and the leader of their "gang". His death was a major blow because he who was the catalyst was no more.

When Nagato talked to Jiraiya about peace, the latter was so impressed, that Nagato's words influenced him to write his book. Nagato himself had suffered from the pain of seeing his parents murdered and of witnessing constant battles and Yahiko's words influenced him a lot.
By reminding him his words to Jiraiya, Naruto touched a sensitive part of Nagato which was not dead as it seemed to be. A part of himself he had probably forgotten and the way Naruto talked reminded him and Konan of their dear friend Yahiko.

Nagato could open his heart to Naruto's words because he realized that Naruto was seeking for peace without automatically the need to kill. And that makes perfectly sense with what Kakashi said, that Naruto has a special gift which is to change peoples' heart, be it friends or foes. Naruto gave hope to Nagato that a true peace was still possible. If he had decided to fight Konan and Nagato, there would have been more actions for sure, but the outcome would have been totally different even in case of a Naruto's victory: I doubt that half of the village would have been brought back to life.

The Nagato's issue shows that violence is not always the solution but diplomacy and words can change critical situations.

That was my opinion about that. If you want to express yours, then feel free to do so.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by lily567 on Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:14 am

Irielo wrote:I don't know what do you think about that but I found it good the way Naruto dealt with Nagato after having defeated the 6 Peins. Why?

Nagato himself was curious about Naruto because they were taught by the same sensei. For sure, Nagato main interest was to extract Kyuubi from Naruto but just the fact that he wanted to know his answer after telling him his story shows that he was opened to know more about Naruto.

Naruto did not experience what Nagato did. The latter after witnessing his parents'  death and countless battles, after having himself participated in countless of them, after having lost countless friends and his best one, Yahiko, became jaded with time when he realized that the dream of peace he shared with Yahiko was not going to work out. Therefore, he came up with a radical solution: achieving peace through power and fear (Bijuu bomb).

Naruto after defeating Deva Pein came to him and Konan and although he had the desire to revenge for the destruction of the village and the death of his comrades and Senseis, Naruto chose the diplomatic way to deal with Nagato. I find it good because thanks to this talk, more informations about the lives of Yahiko, Konan and Nagato came to light. Yahiko was the first in the group whose goal was to become stronger in order one day to bring peace. He was a role model for his two friends and the leader of their "gang". His death was a major blow because he who was the catalyst was no more.

When Nagato talked to Jiraiya about peace, the latter was so impressed, that Nagato's words influenced him to write his book. Nagato himself had suffered from the pain of seeing his parents murdered and of witnessing constant battles and Yahiko's words influenced him a lot.
By reminding him his words to Jiraiya, Naruto touched a sensitive part of Nagato which was not dead as it seemed to be. A part of himself he had probably forgotten and the way Naruto talked reminded him and Konan of their dear friend Yahiko.

Nagato could open his heart to Naruto's words because he realized that Naruto was seeking for peace without automatically the need to kill. And that makes perfectly sense with what Kakashi said, that Naruto has a special gift which is to change peoples' heart, be it friends or foes. Naruto gave hope to Nagato that a true peace was still possible. If he had decided to fight Konan and Nagato, there would have been more actions for sure, but the outcome would have been totally different even in case of a Naruto's victory: I doubt that half of the village would have been brought back to life.

The Nagato's issue shows that violence is not always the solution but diplomacy and words can change critical situations.

That was my opinion about that. If you want to express yours, then feel free to do so.
I do agree with you
kishi was showing us through the manga that violence is not the answer and that using violence can make things far worse than they already are.
the best thing to do is to find out why the person did such a thing and what caused him/her to resort to this method and even if you might not understand what this person went through, you should at least lend an ear and listen and try to help out the person . that is the correct way of doing things

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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by GreatKungLao on Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:27 am

lily567 wrote:
Irielo wrote:I don't know what do you think about that but I found it good the way Naruto dealt with Nagato after having defeated the 6 Peins. Why?

Nagato himself was curious about Naruto because they were taught by the same sensei. For sure, Nagato main interest was to extract Kyuubi from Naruto but just the fact that he wanted to know his answer after telling him his story shows that he was opened to know more about Naruto.

Naruto did not experience what Nagato did. The latter after witnessing his parents'  death and countless battles, after having himself participated in countless of them, after having lost countless friends and his best one, Yahiko, became jaded with time when he realized that the dream of peace he shared with Yahiko was not going to work out. Therefore, he came up with a radical solution: achieving peace through power and fear (Bijuu bomb).

Naruto after defeating Deva Pein came to him and Konan and although he had the desire to revenge for the destruction of the village and the death of his comrades and Senseis, Naruto chose the diplomatic way to deal with Nagato. I find it good because thanks to this talk, more informations about the lives of Yahiko, Konan and Nagato came to light. Yahiko was the first in the group whose goal was to become stronger in order one day to bring peace. He was a role model for his two friends and the leader of their "gang". His death was a major blow because he who was the catalyst was no more.

When Nagato talked to Jiraiya about peace, the latter was so impressed, that Nagato's words influenced him to write his book. Nagato himself had suffered from the pain of seeing his parents murdered and of witnessing constant battles and Yahiko's words influenced him a lot.
By reminding him his words to Jiraiya, Naruto touched a sensitive part of Nagato which was not dead as it seemed to be. A part of himself he had probably forgotten and the way Naruto talked reminded him and Konan of their dear friend Yahiko.

Nagato could open his heart to Naruto's words because he realized that Naruto was seeking for peace without automatically the need to kill. And that makes perfectly sense with what Kakashi said, that Naruto has a special gift which is to change peoples' heart, be it friends or foes. Naruto gave hope to Nagato that a true peace was still possible. If he had decided to fight Konan and Nagato, there would have been more actions for sure, but the outcome would have been totally different even in case of a Naruto's victory: I doubt that half of the village would have been brought back to life.

The Nagato's issue shows that violence is not always the solution but diplomacy and words can change critical situations.

That was my opinion about that. If you want to express yours, then feel free to do so.
I do agree with you
kishi was showing us through the manga that violence is not the answer and that using violence can make things far worse than they already are.
the best thing to do is to find out why the person did such a thing and what caused him/her  to resort to this method and even if you might not understand what this person went through, you should at least lend an ear and listen and try to help out the person . that is the correct way of doing things
And that means Naruto definitely need to talk no jutsu with Obito, or that philosophy of solving problems without violence will be proved wrong.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Irielo on Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:47 am

GreatKungLao wrote:
Spoiler:
lily567 wrote:
Irielo wrote:I don't know what do you think about that but I found it good the way Naruto dealt with Nagato after having defeated the 6 Peins. Why?

Nagato himself was curious about Naruto because they were taught by the same sensei. For sure, Nagato main interest was to extract Kyuubi from Naruto but just the fact that he wanted to know his answer after telling him his story shows that he was opened to know more about Naruto.

Naruto did not experience what Nagato did. The latter after witnessing his parents'  death and countless battles, after having himself participated in countless of them, after having lost countless friends and his best one, Yahiko, became jaded with time when he realized that the dream of peace he shared with Yahiko was not going to work out. Therefore, he came up with a radical solution: achieving peace through power and fear (Bijuu bomb).

Naruto after defeating Deva Pein came to him and Konan and although he had the desire to revenge for the destruction of the village and the death of his comrades and Senseis, Naruto chose the diplomatic way to deal with Nagato. I find it good because thanks to this talk, more informations about the lives of Yahiko, Konan and Nagato came to light. Yahiko was the first in the group whose goal was to become stronger in order one day to bring peace. He was a role model for his two friends and the leader of their "gang". His death was a major blow because he who was the catalyst was no more.

When Nagato talked to Jiraiya about peace, the latter was so impressed, that Nagato's words influenced him to write his book. Nagato himself had suffered from the pain of seeing his parents murdered and of witnessing constant battles and Yahiko's words influenced him a lot.
By reminding him his words to Jiraiya, Naruto touched a sensitive part of Nagato which was not dead as it seemed to be. A part of himself he had probably forgotten and the way Naruto talked reminded him and Konan of their dear friend Yahiko.

Nagato could open his heart to Naruto's words because he realized that Naruto was seeking for peace without automatically the need to kill. And that makes perfectly sense with what Kakashi said, that Naruto has a special gift which is to change peoples' heart, be it friends or foes. Naruto gave hope to Nagato that a true peace was still possible. If he had decided to fight Konan and Nagato, there would have been more actions for sure, but the outcome would have been totally different even in case of a Naruto's victory: I doubt that half of the village would have been brought back to life.

The Nagato's issue shows that violence is not always the solution but diplomacy and words can change critical situations.

That was my opinion about that. If you want to express yours, then feel free to do so.
I do agree with you
kishi was showing us through the manga that violence is not the answer and that using violence can make things far worse than they already are.
the best thing to do is to find out why the person did such a thing and what caused him/her  to resort to this method and even if you might not understand what this person went through, you should at least lend an ear and listen and try to help out the person . that is the correct way of doing things
And that means Naruto definitely need to talk no jutsu with Obito, or that philosophy of solving problems without violence will be proved wrong.
I was not referring to the current situation but only on this "talk no Jutsu" between Naruto and Nagato because some think that this issue was dealt too easily.

Now regarding Obito

Off-Topic:
Like I wrote before, Nagato was ready to hear Naruto's answer and that led Naruto to think. He could have used violence but he did not because Nagato already offered him the possibility to talk. With the current state on the battlefield, Obito is not interested to hear what Naruto has to tell him, on the contrary he just keeps on provoking: killing Naruto's comrades (Neji), talking bad about his father. So, Obito is the only one who can change the situation. If he is open-minded enough to get convinced by Naruto and maybe the others (Minato and Kakashi especially), then the outcome like with Nagato.

However, as long as he still persists on the way he is now, I see no way for him out.Only Obito can decide now.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by GreatKungLao on Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:51 am

Irielo, Zabuza wasn't in the mood to listen little brat and his useless words as well, but when Naruto was crying his words out loud, it reached Zabuza's heart and made him change, even though Zabuza was very hateable character after his first appearances, only at the end he became likable.

I mean that if Naruto really want to change the world for better, as a lot of people entrusted to him, he have to use this philosophy to the very end. Once not be able to work will prove everything wrong.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Irielo on Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:03 am

Please GreatKungLao! Try to understand. This thread is not to talk about Obito or Zabuza. Some people criticized Kishimoto because they thought that  it should not have been like that with Nagato. They are not convinced of this "talk no Jutsu".

That's why I had to make a thread about it to express my opinion. And my opinion is that I don't find anything wrong with this "talk no Jutsu" between Naruto and Nagato. Now if Obito will accept to be convinced like that or not, I don't know... I'm not the mangaka.

If this thread will go again on a discussion about Obito, I will then ask the moderators to close it. I hope you get my point now.

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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by GreatKungLao on Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:22 am

Regarding talk between Naruto and Nagato I don't find anything wrong. It was perfect in each way and the resurrection of all killed people wasn't a bad move from Kishimoto. It was redemption for Nagato and new growth for Naruto in the meaning of mind, will strength and faith in the better future, in the peace that Jiraiya dreamed about.

This whole Pain Ark proved me, that Naruto is that kind of hero, that can win without necessary to kill anyone. He is the ideal example of a hero, that can save everyone, even villains themselves and it was great. That's why I have huge hopes for him right now, especially after Pain Ark. Naruto is a lot like Goku right now - in the beginning of a fight he hates his enemy with all his heart and desire to crush him no matter what, but the further fight continuous, then better main hero starts to understand his enemy and eventually even start feel sorry for him, which leads to redemption of the latter with help of a main hero.

Pain Ark and especially all the talk that Naruto and Nagato have was a born for a new Naruto - with a girl that loves him and with a new strength to change the world thanks to lesson from Nagato's mistakes.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Irielo on Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:28 am

GreatKungLao wrote:Regarding talk between Naruto and Nagato I don't find anything wrong. It was perfect in each way and the resurrection of all killed people wasn't a bad move from Kishimoto. It was redemption for Nagato and new growth for Naruto in the meaning of mind, will strength and faith in the better future, in the peace that Jiraiya dreamed about.

This whole Pain Ark proved me, that Naruto is that kind of hero, that can win without necessary to kill anyone. He is the ideal example of a hero, that can save everyone, even villains themselves and it was great. That's why I have huge hopes for him right now, especially after Pain Ark. Naruto is a lot like Goku right now - in the beginning of a fight he hates his enemy with all his heart and desire to crush him no matter what, but the further fight continuous, then better main hero starts to understand his enemy and eventually even start feel sorry for him, which leads to redemption of the latter with help of a main hero.

Pain Ark and especially all the talk that Naruto and Nagato have was a born for a new Naruto - with a girl that loves him and with a new strength to change the world thanks to lesson from Nagato's mistakes.
Thanks man! This is the kind of opinion I was expecting for this thread. Even though someone has a different opinion about what happened between Naruto and Nagato, I will be thankful. I just want to focus on that "talk no Jutsu" between those two and the way it has been done. That's all.

@ lily567 Thanks for your POV too!
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by lily567 on Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:00 am

Irielo wrote:
GreatKungLao wrote:Regarding talk between Naruto and Nagato I don't find anything wrong. It was perfect in each way and the resurrection of all killed people wasn't a bad move from Kishimoto. It was redemption for Nagato and new growth for Naruto in the meaning of mind, will strength and faith in the better future, in the peace that Jiraiya dreamed about.

This whole Pain Ark proved me, that Naruto is that kind of hero, that can win without necessary to kill anyone. He is the ideal example of a hero, that can save everyone, even villains themselves and it was great. That's why I have huge hopes for him right now, especially after Pain Ark. Naruto is a lot like Goku right now - in the beginning of a fight he hates his enemy with all his heart and desire to crush him no matter what, but the further fight continuous, then better main hero starts to understand his enemy and eventually even start feel sorry for him, which leads to redemption of the latter with help of a main hero.

Pain Ark and especially all the talk that Naruto and Nagato have was a born for a new Naruto - with a girl that loves him and with a new strength to change the world thanks to lesson from Nagato's mistakes.
Thanks man! This is the kind of opinion I was expecting for this thread. Even though someone has a different opinion about what happened between Naruto and Nagato, I will be thankful. I just want to focus on that "talk no Jutsu" between those two and the way it has been done. That's all.

@ lily567 Thanks for your POV too!
your welcome and its no problem

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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Aelita on Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:36 am

The only problem I had with it was that it felt rushed *shrug*

I know this is a fantasy manga but when it comes to human behavior and human relationships, I like there to be some realism. Nagato's strong belief in achieving peace through destruction had been imprinted into his brain long into his adulthood. He had seen how Jiraiya's idealism could fail. Realistically Nagato should have been very set in his ways. It would have taken time for someone to reason him into seeing the light. Special ability to change people or not, if someone holds a strong belief in something for a long number of years and into adulthood, It's extremely difficult to get them to change their minds. Naruto and Nagato had a 30 minute conversation that resulted in Nagato completely changing his world view and dying to protect a concept that he had previously spat on an hour before. At worst the fact that 16 year old Naruto was able to change 39 year old Nagato's heart so quickly makes Nagato and his previous resolve to achieve peace through violence seem mentally weak and easily led.

Think of it this way, how long do you think it would take to reason with a 30 year old anarchist terrorist from the late 1800's who felt like change in the world couldn't happen peacefully? Probably not with one conversation alone. And even if you managed to reason with them, I doubt they would then immediately pull a complete 180 and start actively supporting the same establishment they've been fighting against for most of their lives. But then again that would mess with the plot point of Nagato resurrecting everyone right after the invasion. So some of the realism was lost.

Everything else was fine, I really liked the Pein Arc, it was one of my favorites in part II. I liked the idea of Naruto being able to find peace through hurt and rage with words and understanding. As idealistic as it is. So I understand and agree with your points about the strengths in the Pein Arc, but I understand people who criticize Nagato's sudden change to the good side as well.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by GreatKungLao on Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:51 am

Aelita wrote:The only problem I had with it was that it felt rushed *shrug*

I know this is a fantasy manga but when it comes to human behavior and human relationships, I like there to be some realism. Nagato's strong belief in achieving peace through destruction had been imprinted into his brain long into his adulthood. He had seen how Jiraiya's idealism could fail. Realistically Nagato should have been very set in his ways. It would have taken time for someone to reason him into seeing the light. Special ability to change people or not, if someone holds a strong belief in something for a long number of years and into adulthood, It's extremely difficult to get them to change their minds. Naruto and Nagato had a 30 minute conversation that resulted in Nagato completely changing his world view and dying to protect a concept that he had previously spat on an hour before. At worst the fact that 16 year old Naruto was able to change 39 year old Nagato's heart so quickly makes Nagato and his previous resolve to achieve peace through violence seem mentally weak and easily led.

Think of it this way, how long do you think it would take to reason with a 30 year old anarchist terrorist from the late 1800's who felt like change in the world couldn't happen peacefully? Probably not with one conversation alone. And even if you managed to reason with them, I doubt they would then immediately pull a complete 180 and start actively supporting the same establishment they've been fighting against for most of their lives. But then again that would mess with the plot point of Nagato resurrecting everyone right after the invasion. So some of the realism was lost.

Everything else was fine, I really liked the Pein Arc, it was one of my favorites in part II. I liked the idea of Naruto being able to find peace through hurt and rage with words and understanding. As idealistic as it is. So I understand and agree with your points about the strengths in the Pein Arc, but I understand people who criticize Nagato's sudden change to the good side as well.
There is one difference that you missed. Nagato's twisted idea of peace wasn't there from the beginning. Until probably Naruto's age or older Nagato held idea of the same peace as Jiraiya. Naruto just reminded Nagato about his old self, that the original Nagato was on a right road, but was misleaded in the process.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Aelita on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:02 am

Yeah, but Nagato's jaded beliefs began when Yahiko died when Nagato was in his early twenties. That's over a decade of him holding strong beliefs that had been supported by past life experiences. I agree that the key of his change of heart was being reminded of his old self and somehow finding hope in that road Naruto was on, but still the process of him changing his mind, realistically should have taken longer.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Irielo on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:07 am

Aelita wrote:Yeah, but Nagato's jaded beliefs began when Yahiko died when Nagato was in his early twenties. That's over a decade of him holding strong beliefs that had been supported by past life experiences. I agree that key of his change of heart was being reminded of his old self and somehow finding hope in that road Naruto was on, but still the process of him changing his mind, realistically should have taken longer.
You already gave the answer: Yahiko. Yahiko was a light and an orientation in Konan and Nagato's life. When he died, Nagato and Konan were lost, missing the light they needed and that led to the consequences we know. I think Yahiko was similar to Naruto somehow. Through words he could talk to people's heart and motivate them and that's what Nagato saw in Naruto. He saw that Yahiko's light was still burning in someone else and he started to believe again.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by GreatKungLao on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:15 am

Irielo wrote:He saw that Yahiko's light was still burning in someone else and he started to believe again.
You know, it already happened with a lot of characters in the manga. It's like Naruto is a reincarnation of a few people at the same time: Dan, Nawaki, Yahiko, Obito (young) and he also was entrusted with dreams and hopes of a lot of people. It's like Naruto is holding on his shoulders a massive rock or even a mountain of respobsobilities. The thing that he is still standing is amazing (with the help of Hinata of course :3). I think this is what Nagato also saw in Naruto - even after living though all those horrible things, his beliefs into Jiraiya's teaching is still alive, while Nagato wasn't able to hold it too long without loosing his way. As Hinata said, Naruto's true and incredible strength is to be able stand up after a failure and become even stronger, without loosing faith in his future victory over challenge.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Aelita on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:35 am

@Irielo It's not that I'm disagreeing with you lol, I see what you're saying and I agree with most of what you're saying. I'm just saying Nagato's change of heart shouldn't have happened as quickly as it did. Realistically it should have taken some time--that's why it gets criticized. Not because the elements for Nagato's change of heart weren't there, the realism behind the actual change itself was flawed. What grown person do you know stews on a strong belief that was supported by past life events for over 10 years of their life only to make a sudden complete 180 after a single 30 minute conversation? Even if there are strong enough elements to make this person change their mind, it would still be difficult and would take time. Even if Nagato saw a glimpse of Yahiko's light in Naruto, the jaded-ness that's been stewing in Nagato's heart for the past decade should have made him more doubtful at first. People tend to get set in their ways after a certain age, this is especially true for social and political beliefs. It should have taken more time and effort to change him.
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Re: Naruto's "talk no Jutsu" to Nagato

Post by Irielo on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:51 am

Aelita wrote:@Irielo It's not that I'm disagreeing with you lol, I see what you're saying and I agree with most of what you're saying. I'm just saying Nagato's change of heart shouldn't have happened as quickly as it did. Realistically it should have taken some time--that's why it gets criticized. Not because the elements for Nagato's change of heart weren't there, the realism behind the actual change itself was flawed. What grown person do you know stews on a strong belief that was supported by past life events for over 10 years of their life only to make a sudden complete 180 after a single 30 minute conversation? Even if there are strong enough elements to make this person change their mind, it would still be difficult and would take time. Even if Nagato saw a glimpse of Yahiko's light in Naruto, the jaded-ness that's been stewing in Nagato's heart for the past decade should have made him more doubtful at first. People tend to get set in their ways after a certain age, this is especially true for social and political beliefs. It should have taken more time and effort to change him.
That's fine Aelita lol. I'm actually happy that you bring your interesting POV. But now that you are pointing the lack of realism behind it, how should it has been dealt then?

But I get what you mean with "single 30 minute"... What I can say is that Nagato was already asking himself about Naruto before they meet. It was the first time that someone could compete against him at this level and Naruto was a curiosity to him because he had the same sensei.
I had the feeling too that Nagato was kind of exhausted with life: fed up of fighting, fed up of pain and if I'm not wrong he was sick too. That's why he preferred to sacrifice himself because he saw the promise of something better for the future in Naruto.
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