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my sasusaku rant

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:06 am

Irielo wrote:@ SenpaiSamaSan "Honor and Pride above all". That's a good definition of Sasuke's perspective and if he needs to restore his clan in a literal way, then he would need a woman... But will it imply romantic feelings from him? Not necessarily.

I can imagine Sasuke using a woman only for reproduction purposes... and Sakura for sure won't accept to be used as a tool in opposition to Karin for instance...

That would be hilariously sad. Sakura spends her whole life chasing someone who only sees her as a reproductive device.

Man SS would be weird if you think about it.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Irielo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:14 am

engetsu wrote:
Irielo wrote:@ SenpaiSamaSan "Honor and Pride above all". That's a good definition of Sasuke's perspective and if he needs to restore his clan in a literal way, then he would need a woman... But will it imply romantic feelings from him? Not necessarily.

I can imagine Sasuke using a woman only for reproduction purposes... and Sakura for sure won't accept to be used as a tool in opposition to Karin for instance...

That would be hilariously sad. Sakura spends her whole life chasing someone who only sees her as a reproductive device.

Man SS would be weird if you think about it.

It's not it "would" but at this point of the story, SS is weird imo. As long as there aren't meaningful developments, I'll see that pairing that way. Sorry... And Sakura might have chased after him because she is still in love with the past, but for the future, I doubt that will go on.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:19 am

@Irielo
I have no clue what Sasuke plans to do when it comes to literally reviving the Uchiha clan. If it becomes canon that the Sharingan is a product of Juubi/Bijuu chakra in the brains of the Uchiha, his quest to eliminating the bijuu would become extremely hypocritical if he does "restore his clan". If he really wanted to protect the village then it's not a big leap from destroying bijuu to destroying kekkei genkai, as we've seen Kumo's over-militarization involving both training their bijuu hosts and stealing kekkei genkai to strengthen their military might.

Seppuku is a way preserve honor or to attenuate past shame, just look at Kakashi's dad. As representative of the Uchiha clan, it's always an option for Sasuke.

But this is kind of off topic. :P

Point is, I don't know if Sasuke has actually thought that far ahead yet or whether it would even be an issue that will be addressed in the story.

@engetsu
I don't think SS will be formally established as a pairing and I don't think Sakura is willing to abandon her ideals to join Sasuke. So no, I don't think you're right this time. :P
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:26 am

Irielo wrote:
engetsu wrote:
Irielo wrote:@ SenpaiSamaSan "Honor and Pride above all". That's a good definition of Sasuke's perspective and if he needs to restore his clan in a literal way, then he would need a woman... But will it imply romantic feelings from him? Not necessarily.

I can imagine Sasuke using a woman only for reproduction purposes... and Sakura for sure won't accept to be used as a tool in opposition to Karin for instance...

That would be hilariously sad. Sakura spends her whole life chasing someone who only sees her as a reproductive device.

Man SS would be weird if you think about it.

It's not it "would" but at this point of the story, SS is weird imo. As long as there aren't meaningful developments, I'll see that pairing that way. Sorry... And Sakura might have chased after him because she is still in love with the past, but for the future, I doubt that will go on.

I think there are just too many opportunities for funny moments with SS (same for NH) too pass it up though. I mean from an entertainment aspect, there's a lot of potential if these ships get confirmed at the end of this arc and of the series continues past this arc and beyond.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Irielo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:29 am

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:@Irielo
I have no clue what Sasuke plans to do when it comes to literally reviving the Uchiha clan. If it becomes canon that the Sharingan is a product of Juubi/Bijuu chakra in the brains of the Uchiha, his quest to eliminating the bijuu would become extremely hypocritical if he does "restore his clan". If he really wanted to protect the village then it's not a big leap from destroying bijuu to destroying kekkei genkai, as we've seen Kumo's over-militarization involving both training their bijuu hosts and stealing kekkei genkai to strengthen their military might.

Seppuku is a way preserve honor or to attenuate past shame, just look at Kakashi's dad. As representative of the Uchiha clan, it's always an option for Sasuke.

But this is kind of off topic. :P

Point is, I don't know if Sasuke has actually thought that far ahead yet or whether it would even be an issue that will be addressed in the story.

@engetsu
I don't think SS will be formally established as a pairing and I don't think Sakura is willing to abandon her ideals to join Sasuke. So no, I don't think you're right this time. :P

Now that you mention seppuku, in one thread regarding Sasuke's reckless attitude, I thought about the fact that he might sacrifice himself: Honor incarnated in death... Very interesting perspective but still dramatic.

@ engetsu It depends how these funny entertaining moments will be brought up. For now, the atmosphere is still tensed.

Spoiler:
Sorry I won't stay long here. Have to wake up really early tomorrow.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:31 am

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:@Irielo
I have no clue what Sasuke plans to do when it comes to literally reviving the Uchiha clan. If it becomes canon that the Sharingan is a product of Juubi/Bijuu chakra in the brains of the Uchiha, his quest to eliminating the bijuu would become extremely hypocritical if he does "restore his clan". If he really wanted to protect the village then it's not a big leap from destroying bijuu to destroying kekkei genkai, as we've seen Kumo's over-militarization involving both training their bijuu hosts and stealing kekkei genkai to strengthen their military might.

Seppuku is a way preserve honor or to attenuate past shame, just look at Kakashi's dad. As representative of the Uchiha clan, it's always an option for Sasuke.

But this is kind of off topic. :P

Point is, I don't know if Sasuke has actually thought that far ahead yet or whether it would even be an issue that will be addressed in the story.

@engetsu
I don't think SS will be formally established as a pairing and I don't think Sakura is willing to abandon her ideals to join Sasuke. So no, I don't think you're right this time. :P

How many NaruHina bucks are you willing to bet?

Tim to put your money where you keyboard senpaisamasan

Or are you chicken?
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:53 am

engetsu wrote:
How many NaruHina bucks are you willing to bet?

Tim to put your money where you keyboard senpaisamasan

Or are you chicken?

Spoiler:
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:56 am

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:
engetsu wrote:
How many NaruHina bucks are you willing to bet?

Tim to put your money where you keyboard senpaisamasan

Or are you chicken?

Spoiler:

I'm talking about a bet.

If SS happens I win, if it becomes obvious it won't happen in the course of events you win.

Lets make the stakes simple but significant...the winner decides the losers avatar and sig. (Within reason of course, nothing explicit)
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:10 am

Off-topic:

Okay, what would be considered canonization? Will we have to wait 'til the end of the manga, should the relationship happen and then dissolve by the end or is it happening at all despite end outcome enough to declare SS as a "ship that sailed"? Where would we draw that line? Sasuke saying "I love you", a kiss? What if a kiss is not shown but implied, I could and will weasel my way out of it. :P

Too many factors here, and we may have to wait until manga's end, which would probably mean one or both of us won't be here anymore to enjoy our spoils.

I'm not chicken though... just being cautiously thorough. >_>
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:18 am

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:
Off-topic:

Okay, what would be considered canonization? Will we have to wait 'til the end of the manga, should the relationship happen and then dissolve by the end or is it happening at all despite end outcome enough to declare SS as a "ship that sailed"? Where would we draw that line? Sasuke saying "I love you", a kiss? What if a kiss is not shown but implied, I could and will weasel my way out of it. :P

Too many factors here, and we may have to wait until manga's end, which would probably mean one or both of us won't be here anymore to enjoy our spoils.

I'm not chicken though... just being cautiously thorough. >_>

Spoiler:
I'm a fair man, if at any point in the manga Sakura rejects Sasuke in any way, if he makes an advance or not, then I lose.

On the flip side, if there is a mutual exchange or words or actions that clearly demonstrate they have accepted each other, I win

Fair enough?

If there is a dispute Irielo gets to be the judge, we both know him well enough to trust his judgement

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:26 am

engetsu wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm a fair man, if at any point in the manga Sakura rejects Sasuke in any way, if he makes an advance or not, then I lose.

On the flip side, if there is a mutual exchange or words or actions that clearly demonstrate they have accepted each other, I win

Fair enough?

If there is a dispute Irielo gets to be the judge, we both know him well enough to trust his judgement


Spoiler:

Very well then, it's a bet. It's just an av/sig change after all.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by RosettaMyst on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:28 am

engetsu wrote:
SenpaiSamaSan wrote:@Irielo
I have no clue what Sasuke plans to do when it comes to literally reviving the Uchiha clan. If it becomes canon that the Sharingan is a product of Juubi/Bijuu chakra in the brains of the Uchiha, his quest to eliminating the bijuu would become extremely hypocritical if he does "restore his clan". If he really wanted to protect the village then it's not a big leap from destroying bijuu to destroying kekkei genkai, as we've seen Kumo's over-militarization involving both training their bijuu hosts and stealing kekkei genkai to strengthen their military might.

Seppuku is a way preserve honor or to attenuate past shame, just look at Kakashi's dad. As representative of the Uchiha clan, it's always an option for Sasuke.

But this is kind of off topic. :P

Point is, I don't know if Sasuke has actually thought that far ahead yet or whether it would even be an issue that will be addressed in the story.

@engetsu
I don't think SS will be formally established as a pairing and I don't think Sakura is willing to abandon her ideals to join Sasuke. So no, I don't think you're right this time. :P

How many NaruHina bucks are you willing to bet?

Tim to put your money where you keyboard senpaisamasan

Or are you chicken?

I have to agree with engetsu. As someone who is studying writing and character dialogue, I think if NH does become canon SS will follow. I don't think Kishi is going to leave her with out achieving that goal, as she is the female protagonist. Nor is he having her love him 600 + chapters and waste all that energy into it for nothing. The way I always saw it, is that she's either going to end up with Naruto (as much as I hate that pairing) or Sasuke one of the two. As for Sakura never wanting to abandon Naruto's ideals for Sasuke's, that is true. But if that happens, I hope that only happens temporarily, cause if not it could be paving the was for NS. So the way I see it Sasuke will either be redeemed or die one of the two. I do believe he will be redeemed, since the themes to this story is 'never give up' (As Naruto will never give up trying to redeem him.) and that the new generations will surpass the old ones. (Like how Jiraiya was unable to redeem Orichimaru.) We also have to remember Kishi's foreshadowing in the data book that mentions the infamous bench scene, "Sasuke has not 'yet' responded to her feelings."


I'm through, probably the last post I'll make on this thread. Btw, I always had a 100% accuracy when it comes to predicting pairings. But I always said, if I'm ever wrong it could most likely be this series. Because Kishsi is always going back and forth between pairings, he makes it harder to predict.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:29 am

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:
engetsu wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm a fair man, if at any point in the manga Sakura rejects Sasuke in any way, if he makes an advance or not, then I lose.

On the flip side, if there is a mutual exchange or words or actions that clearly demonstrate they have accepted each other, I win

Fair enough?

If there is a dispute Irielo gets to be the judge, we both know him well enough to trust his judgement


Spoiler:

Very well then, it's a bet. It's just an av/sig change after all.

Spoiler:
oh and let's call the time period 1month
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:33 am

RosettaMyst wrote:
engetsu wrote:
SenpaiSamaSan wrote:@Irielo
I have no clue what Sasuke plans to do when it comes to literally reviving the Uchiha clan. If it becomes canon that the Sharingan is a product of Juubi/Bijuu chakra in the brains of the Uchiha, his quest to eliminating the bijuu would become extremely hypocritical if he does "restore his clan". If he really wanted to protect the village then it's not a big leap from destroying bijuu to destroying kekkei genkai, as we've seen Kumo's over-militarization involving both training their bijuu hosts and stealing kekkei genkai to strengthen their military might.

Seppuku is a way preserve honor or to attenuate past shame, just look at Kakashi's dad. As representative of the Uchiha clan, it's always an option for Sasuke.

But this is kind of off topic. :P

Point is, I don't know if Sasuke has actually thought that far ahead yet or whether it would even be an issue that will be addressed in the story.

@engetsu
I don't think SS will be formally established as a pairing and I don't think Sakura is willing to abandon her ideals to join Sasuke. So no, I don't think you're right this time. :P

How many NaruHina bucks are you willing to bet?

Tim to put your money where you keyboard senpaisamasan

Or are you chicken?

I have to agree with engetsu. As someone who is studying writing and character dialogue, I think if NH does become canon SS will follow. I don't think Kishi is going to leave her with out achieving that goal, as she is the female protagonist. Nor is he having her love him 600 + chapters and waste all that energy into it for nothing. The way I always saw it, is that she's either going to end up with Naruto (as much as I hate that pairing) or Sasuke one of the two. As for Sakura never wanting to abandon Naruto's ideals for Sasuke's, that is true. But if that happens, I hope that only happens temporarily, cause if not it could be paving the was for NS. So the way I see it Sasuke will either be redeemed or die one of the two. I do believe he will be redeemed, since the themes to this story is 'never give up' (As Naruto will never give up trying to redeem him.) and that the new generations will surpass the old ones. (Like how Jiraiya was unable to redeem Orichimaru.) We also have to remember Kishi's foreshadowing in the data book that mentions the infamous bench scene, "Sasuke has not 'yet' responded to her feelings."


I'm through, probably the last post I'll make on this thread. Btw, I always had a 100% accuracy when it comes to predicting pairings. But I always said, if I'm ever wrong it could most likely be this series. Because Kishsi is always going back and forth between pairings, he makes it harder to predict.


Exactly NH and SS are interdependent endgames that have developed alongside each other for a long time.

But that's no longer the issue.

Now I have to decide what sig and avatar senpaisamasan will have to put on when I win
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:50 am

RosettaMyst wrote:
I have to agree with engetsu. As someone who is studying writing and character dialogue, I think if NH does become canon SS will follow. I don't think Kishi is going to leave her with out achieving that goal, as she is the female protagonist. Nor is he having her love him 600 + chapters and waste all that energy into it for nothing. The way I always saw it, is that she's either going to end up with Naruto (as much as I hate that pairing) or Sasuke one of the two. As for Sakura never wanting to abandon Naruto's ideals for Sasuke's, that is true. But if that happens, I hope that only happens temporarily, cause if not it could be paving the was for NS. So the way I see it Sasuke will either be redeemed or die one of the two. I do believe he will be redeemed, since the themes to this story is 'never give up' (As Naruto will never give up trying to redeem him.) and that the new generations will surpass the old ones. (Like how Jiraiya was unable to redeem Orichimaru.) We also have to remember Kishi's foreshadowing in the data book that mentions the infamous bench scene, "Sasuke has not 'yet' responded to her feelings."

I'm through, probably the last post I'll make on this thread. Btw, I always had a 100% accuracy when it comes to predicting pairings. But I always said, if I'm ever wrong it could most likely be this series. Because Kishsi is always going back and forth between pairings, he makes it harder to predict.

I agree with everything you've said here. I feel like either Sasuke is going to be redeemed, or he'll die. Only two options I see. Kishi has stressed the themes of never giving up on your precious people no matter how tough it gets, so for Sasuke to remain the same uncaring, cold person we first saw who didn't care about bonds would just feel like he remained stagnant in the areas that held him back from true happiness and friendship, and it would make me question what the point was if in the end, they couldn't save him. Plus, his comrades changed in areas where they needed too.

Sakura no longer just caring about Sasuke, but Naruto too and wanting to be tougher for them and herself. Naruto learned to fight with others instead of 'running around by himself.' I feel like Sasuke needs to still learn the lesson he still hasn't learned "trust in others instead of assuming they'll get in the way" and most importantly, opening up his heart to bonds and friendship instead of throwing them aside.

It's how I feel at least.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:03 pm

@RosettaMyst

I understand that their is momentum for the pairing from Sakura's side, however love does not have to be requited in order to have a profound effect on her character. Sasuke's character hasn't really focused on romantic feelings much at all, and he is half of the pairing. It would be unsatisfying to have this love story play out without the one half acknowledging the other at all for the greater part of the story, even in scenes where they interact. Hell, it took chapter 559 to convince me that NH would have a chance at canonization. Sasuke and Team 7 have been a focus of the story, SS should have been far ahead of the other pairings, which it was by the end of Part 1, but in Part 2, we saw a gradual acknowledgment from the unknowing party towards the pursuing party in a positive manner (Sakura empathizes with Naruto, Naruto encounters new unexplored feelings when with Hinata) but all we have still is Sasuke's very vague "Thank You" that we are expected to tide us over even after he falls deeper into the darkness?
Sakura should have been a much more important figure in Sasuke's life, but that role is firmly held by Itachi, not even Naruto can rival that bond.

Maybe I'm too cynical when it comes to relationships but that's just how I view things.

@engetsu
For the av/sig change or for the bet? jk :P

Alright one month then.

...but inter-dependent endgames? I think NH can happen without SS happening. NH has always developed without the need for third party intervention. If anything SS complicated NH because if Sakura hadn't given much thought to Sasuke, she would never have payed attention to him when he corrected her about her assessment of Naruto in chapter three thus leaving her to think negatively about and be less than empathetic towards Naruto for a longer period of time and NS would have weaker arguments.

@Bubbles
Yes, but that doesn't mean he has to fall in love to be saved. Friendship, brotherhood and camaraderie are themes that Sasuke's character has revolved around (Team 7, Team Taka, Clan, Itachi), although negatively, he needs to accept others and work together with them much like Naruto needed to learn that lesson as well. That I agree with.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Aelita on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:06 pm

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:
SS will be important for Sakura's development, I have no doubt, and she may play a big role in Sasuke's character resolution towards the end of the manga but will they end up together? I really doubt it. The most optimistic outcome I can see is Kishi leaving a few vague hints that Sasuke may be reciprocating her feelings, but nothing really conclusive. It would be too fast now, I would have needed Sasuke thinking about Sakura's confession earlier on, maybe regretting attacking her but there is nothing like that yet, no cues for me sprinkled throughout the manga on his side to even start seriously believing that Sasuke cares much for affairs of the heart.

This is pretty much the only way I could see SS happening at the moment. Either through epilogue or through some subtle hint towards the end that Sasuke may start to reciprocate her feelings. And Sakura would be content with that-- though I also feel she'd be content with a happy team 7 whether she ends up with Sasuke romantically or not. (I'm still waiting on an explanation to what her love for Sasuke is founded on-- though unfortunately I feel like this important piece of development will be bypassed) I couldn't imagine a declaration of love from Sasuke. Like everything else from him when it came to SS, it'd be pretty vague. That or he doesn't end up with anyone by the end. I have a hard time taking SasuKarin seriously. But I also have the hardest time imagining Sasuke as a happy family man with how he is right now tbh.

Sasuke has only mentioned wanting to restore his clan two times: During the introduction of team 7 and during the Kage Summit Arc where he said he wanted to revive his clan... by killing all the residents of Konoha lol. While the restoration of his clan is something I think Sasuke wants, I'm going to assume that it's near the end of his "to-do" list. While its something he would like, I don't think it has that much importance to him in comparison to other matters. If it did he would have started showing interest in "reserving" certain girls for it by now (if he plans do restore his clan by using some girl purely for reproductive purposes only). Lord knows with all the girls who've thrown themselves at him he could have by now. He shows no romantic (or sexual/reproductive) interest in Karin, or really any girl for that matter. Since he hasn't shown any interest in all the opinions he has, I feel like he's not going to restore his clan with some one unless he feels romantically attached to them (but that's just my opinion). You how Uchihas are with love lol.

Spoiler:
Since I've mostly been mostly kinda Anti-SS I'm going to be a little Pro-SS lol. I disagree with Anti-SS arguments that claim that Sasuke would be abusive if he were in a relationship with Sakura. With all the options Sasuke has had for relationships and with how little interest he's shown in these girls who've thrown themselves at him, I don't feel like he would pursue a girl unless he actually loved her. And since Uchihas value love and their loved ones so much (and are a bit crazy) I don't think he'd be abusive towards her. Maybe insensitive at times, but in true cray Uchiha form he would love her to death. Probably not outwardly, but still...
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:12 pm

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:@RosettaMyst

I understand that their is momentum for the pairing from Sakura's side, however love does not have to be requited in order to have a profound effect on her character. Sasuke's character hasn't really focused on romantic feelings much at all, and he is half of the pairing. It would be unsatisfying to have this love story play out without the one half acknowledging the other at all for the greater part of the story, even in scenes where they interact. Hell, it took chapter 559 to convince me that NH would have a chance at canonization. Sasuke and Team 7 have been a focus of the story, SS should have been far ahead of the other pairings, which it was by the end of Part 1, but in Part 2, we saw a gradual acknowledgment from the unknowing party towards the pursuing party in a positive manner (Sakura empathizes with Naruto, Naruto encounters new unexplored feelings when with Hinata) but all we have still is Sasuke's very vague "Thank You" that we are expected to tide us over even after he falls deeper into the darkness?
Sakura should have been a much more important figure in Sasuke's life, but that role is firmly held by Itachi, not even Naruto can rival that bond.

Maybe I'm too cynical when it comes to relationships but that's just how I view things.

@engetsu
For the av/sig change or for the bet? jk :P

Alright one month then.

...but inter-dependent endgames? I think NH can happen without SS happening. NH has always developed without the need for third party intervention. If anything SS complicated NH because if Sakura hadn't given much thought to Sasuke, she would never have payed attention to him when he corrected her about her assessment of Naruto in chapter three thus leaving her to think negatively about and be less than empathetic towards Naruto for a longer period of time and NS would have weaker arguments.

@Bubbles
Yes, but that doesn't mean he has to fall in love to be saved. Friendship, brotherhood and camaraderie are themes that Sasuke's character has revolved around (Team 7, Team Taka, Clan, Itachi), although negatively, he needs to accept others and work together with them much like Naruto needed to learn that lesson as well. That I agree with.


The reason I call them interdependent is well....this really sucks to say as a NH fan....but.....if Sakura wasn't interested in pursuing Sasuke and wasn't so committed to him, Naruto would have never had a reason to abandon his childhood crush. I mean Sakura probably would have never returned his feelings anyway, but he would have never had a reason to move on.

I mean the existence of SS used to be one of the ONLY things NH can going for it for years. I remember those days. All we could really do was say that "well at least we know NS won't happen because of this or that and bring up how well they COULD be together if they interacted.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:38 pm

@Aelita
I agree that Sakura would be content with a whole Team 7 together, regardless of Sasuke reciprocating her feelings or not. With Sasuke back, over time they can become closer.

I think Sasuke's "restoration" of the Uchiha clan has more to do with restoring it's previous prestige and honor than physical restoration, though it can be a part of it.

I think Sasuke is afraid of having such close bonds, mostly because of Itachi, but when it comes to family, I agree that Sasuke would be fiercely loyal and would love and protect whoever he chooses to be with as well.

@engetsu
I think SS might have made it easier for Naruto to let go, but I don't think it would have been impossible for him to, especially with having another option open up for you. Sakura would have rejected Naruto regardless of Sasuke and the failfession problem would still exist. Sakura would confess to Naruto only after he becomes a hero, something Naruto really doesn't like as we see when people start asking him for autographs, but he was confessed to by Hinata in the most dire of situations when he failed to defeat Pain.

It would at least make him think a little.

Sasuke has drawn together and pulled apart Naruto and Sakura, so I think things wouldn't change as drastically from the way they are now if SS didn't exist, just as SS wouldn't change drastically without the existence of NH.

But I can see the argument that during the days when NH wasn't as prominent, it would be a lot more nerve wracking without the safety of knowing Sakura loves someone else, but that's all it is, a psychological effect, it wouldn't change Hinata's confession, Sakura's failfession, 559, and 615. Hinata is too big a contributor to Naruto's development, and vice versa, to be considered a non-factor when it comes to a change in Naruto's feelings.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Aelita on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:16 pm

@engestu
I don't see how Naruto falling in love with Hinata would make Sasuke suddenly fall in love with Sakura though =/ or vice versa.
I remember back in the pre-Pein Arc days where people said Naruhina lacked development and the only thing in NS's way was really Sakura's feelings for Sasuke (which hadn't been reaffirmed in a long while). But just because Sakura still had feelings for Sasuke didn't mean Naruto was going to suddenly fall for Hinata. Sure it opened the possibility of Naruto maybe moving on to to Hinata one day by "getting rid of" the other competitor (Sakura), but Sakura being unavailable alone wouldn't have made Naruto fall for Hinata. Using Sakura's feelings as an argument might dismantle NS, but it doesn't help NH. Naruto would have had to develop feelings for Hinata on his own, independent from his feelings for Sakura for NH to work (which has been happening in the War Arc with the closure of NS during the false confession/Kage Summit Arc). Back then I only lurked shipping discussions and fandom rather than take part, but I really only shipped NH based on a feeling I had and that I liked the ship rather than on solid proof towards canonship. NH and SS have always been joined together against a common enemy: NS (lol), but that doesn't mean the two ships are interdependent. What you're describing is actually side shipping, shipping a certain ship really just to get rid of the "threat" character(s). Not to say that you can't honestly like both NH and SS and want both to become canon. But there are folks on all sides of the spectrum guilty of it (NH fans side shipping SS, SS fans side shipping NH, NS fans side shipping SK or sometimes SH etc, etc) But Naruto falling in love with Hinata, while killing NS, doesn't necessarily mean that Sasuke will fall in love with Sakura. Sasuke would have to show signs of developing feelings for Sakura on his own.

@RosettaMyst
And that's basically the only reason why SS still has a chance lol. Because Sakura is the main girl, her character is like 75% romance, she still loves him and you best believe she's probably going to end up with someone lol, whether it be Naruto or Sasuke. (Though tbh, even though I'm a sakura fan, I'd rather her not end up with anyone if those two are her only options-- as unlikely as that is). But that doesn't help the fact that Sakura single-handledly carries this ship. It takes two to tango. The development on Sasuke's end has been missing for a large chunk of the manga. The "thank you" and the SS confession was in chapter 181, that was 459 chapters ago guys, it's kinda hard to just dismiss. I mean part I is important too, but geez dat lack of development. The only positive development since from his side has been a smirk. Whenever he thinks of Sakura they're either fighting as enemies or its in the context of team 7. SS is in desperate need of some positive development from Sasuke's end, but he keeps pooing on it every chance he gets gets =/ Not saying SS won't happen, but still mutual development is important and without it the quality of the writing behind SS diminishes.
I also don't see how Sakura choosing not to betray one of her closest friends would pave the way for NS in the prompted scenario. Though I agree the shipping wars would be crazy lol. (I have heard NS arguments supporting what I'm saying, but I still don't see how'd that make her suddenly love Naruto or fall out of love with Sasuke, Sakura's a ride or die after all lol)

@SenpaiSamaSan
I agree with what you've said for the most part. Sasuke becoming redeemed doesn't necessarily mean he's going to fall in love with Sakura. His redemption has nothing to do with romance really. If he restores his and his clan's honor in the eyes of his comrades, his team, the leaf village and himself, Sasuke pretty much redeems himself. And I'm sure that alone could create a happy ending for team 7--one that Sakura could be happy with, even if she didn't end up with him in the end. I basically see it happening one of three ways: Sasuke redeems himself with a subtle SS ending, Sasuke redeems himself no pairings, or Sasuke dies.
Spoiler:
Incase Senpai loses~ I think the pic of the blushing kawaii Titan from Attack on Titan I posted in the "Would have Hinata been forced to marry Neji then?!" thread should be used as a sig or av. There's also there's this gif of a titan with very girly mannerisms running through and tearing up the street with something like a "senpai noticed me!" caption floating around tumblr that would just be lovely as a sig or av. Senpaiiii~~
 
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:28 pm

Oh I agree that Sasuke doesn't have to reciprocate her feelings and that Sakura would be happy that he is happy no matter what. All he needs is to open his heart to bonds and such, redeeming himself by the end.

Sakura wants a happy ending for them all. But I do feel that SS still needs be addressed in any case. Whether this means him accepting or turning her down, is a matter of time will tell though.

I also am not getting my hopes up for any big on screen SS either. I'd figure if it did happen, epilogue with perhaps a bit of hinting at the end.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Irielo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:26 pm

One of the argument used against NS is Sasuke. That could be the same when it comes to SS but this time with Naruto. That does not mean that Sakura is romantically in love with Naruto but she won't approve Sasuke if he tries to kill her best friend.

That would be a personal victory if Sakura could convince Sasuke to stop his plan. That would be a character's development as well for Sasuke. I mean Sasuke always took decisions according to what he knew or came to learn from the past (revenging on Itachi, Tobi's story, Hashirama's story). The past to him, is his main reference which influences his actions and his decisions about the future.

If Sakura succeeds to convince him, that would mean that for once he would have accepted to open his heart to the present and to change his mind. That would mean that he is ready to accept love instead of pride.
Has Sasuke the power to do that?

@engetsu and SenpaiSamaSan
OFF-TOPIC Spoiler
Spoiler:
I read about your bet lol. The problem is to judge that will be difficult for me. There is a big probability that I have to go to Africa to work a bit more than 1 month in a social project in a small village. I don't think there is any internet connexion there and I don't think I'll have the time. So one month without Naruto and without any possibility to come here.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:55 am

Too much stuff said that I'd be here for hours that I'm not interested in spending to answer it all.

However, there's one argument that I kept seeing that annoys me far too much to ignore it and I'm going to paraphrase it below:

It's been too long since a particular development.

ANY serious NaruHina fan making this argument against a pairing should be ashamed for actually endorsing this argument that was always made against NaruHina for years particularly due to the fact that Hinata was missing from the manga for hundreds of chapters at a time. I've been around the fandom since 2007 and this argument was around years before I joined and has only stopped to an extent last year (and I'll still see it occasionally). Just as it was always wrong when it was said about NaruHina, it's wrong when it's said about SasuSaku (or actually any pairing in the Naruto series to be bluntly honest). Development has nothing to do with the amount of chapters that has gone by or even the amount of time that has passed.

Sasuke has extremely different circumstances when it comes to all of his relationships compared to most other characters (Gaara is one of the very few with similar circumstances). If you ignore Sasuke's circumstances when deciding that SasuSaku has "development issues," then as far as I'm concerned you're not that much different from those who always spoke down about NaruHina because "Hinata is not important enough" among other reasons given for why NaruHina didn't have enough development or has "none" as those people were also ignoring the story too.

SasuSaku's development has Sakura forever in love with him (one of the biggest forms of SasuSaku development in Part 2 has done is prove that Sakura will love him forever) and Sasuke considering Sakura to be someone extremely important while knowing she loved him--and he still clearly respects her as his smirk showed, his continued need to save her, & the fact that he values all the members of Team 7 just as he always did when he left. Sasuke said "Thank you" just as Naruto held Hinata's hand. Neither boy is stupid and you don't say or do certain things with a girl that is deeply in love with you if you are not interested at all.

Just as NaruHina fans had been waiting for Naruto to show some signs of being receptive to Hinata's feelings (which we've gotten), SasuSaku fans are waiting for more of the same (which we were the first pairing fans to get in the first place due to all the Part 1 development). NaruHina has only recently gotten to be in the same place as SasuSaku when it comes to development. The only major difference between the two is SasuSaku has the "Sasuke is stuck in darkness" drama that NaruHina lacks. Otherwise, they aren't anywhere near as different as many fans make them out to be (whether they like only one of the two, both, or neither).

I've always been of the opinion that the only reason Naruto had an interest in Sakura in the beginning of the series was to keep NaruHina from being too obvious. Re-read the Chuunin exams with the assumption that Naruto & Sakura can only be friends and there's no way people wouldn't have considered NaruHina endgame from Part 1 otherwise. Sasuke's "decent into darkness" was done to keep SasuSaku from being too obvious as is blatantly obvious by the fact that some people are only doubting SasuSaku because of it (similarly why some people still doubt NaruHina only because "Naruto might still be into Sakura"). It's called "drama" in both cases.

I understand people hating certain forms of drama or having distinct preferences, that's a reason to not ship or to ship a pairing. However, liking things or hating things has zero to do with development.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:26 am

Yamasaki, great response! Yes, much like how NH took a while for it's development, I didn't see why SS was getting such flack. Especially since as you said, our sister ship [NH] got this same treatment from anti's and as I mention in my previous posts, SS got plenty of development in part 1, which was stalled by part 2 drama, but that doesnt make SS less likely anymore than it made NH. Sakura is so far carrying SS, but how long did Hinata carry NH?

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Aelita on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:32 pm

But Yamasaki the thing is, when the "no development from Naruto's end in a very long time" argument was made pre-Pein Arc, it was a valid argument. Didn't stop me from liking the ship, and I may have acted stubborn at the time, but it was a valid point. Naruhina couldn't thrive without Naruto showing any signs of developing feelings for Hinata. (I've been a fan of NH ever since the "proud failure" scene, but for a long time I shipped Naruhina not on sound evidence but on a feeling I had, and that I liked the ship). Without Kishi kicking NH into high gear with Hinata's confession, who knows if NH would have had a chance at canon. And for a long time Hinata did carry the weight of the ship. But we finally got that missing positive development from Naruto's end with with his reaction to Hinata's "death". How troubled and angered he was by it, it proved that on a certain level, he did care for Hinata, enough to transform into the 6-tails (having previously promised not to use the kyuubi's power) over her.

The same argument has been used against NS. Remember the arguments that pointed out how Narusaku's development had become stagnant after Sakura's false confession? There were even people counting down the chapters since the last meaningful NS interaction-- the false confession (which had ended very negatively for NS). The general argument was, since Naruto's feelings for Sakura hadn't been touched on for so long after that event, it was probable that it meant that Naruto's feelings for Sakura were fading and that the "confession" in 469 was the closure of Narusaku. Now if I apply that same logic to SS, examining it from Sasuke's end, it would mean that the confession in 181 was Sasusaku's closure since SS has gotten nothing positive but a smirk from Sasuke ever since.

SasuSaku cannot work without Sasuke. Sakura can love Sasuke till the end of time, Sasusaku would still need him to show signs that he's reciprocating her feelings to happen. The development that SS needs from Sasuke's end has been missing for more than half the manga. More than half the manga, 460 chapters since that last vague "thank you". That's longer than the NH drought, that's longer than the gap in NS development. It's a significant lack of mutual development, especially for two main characters. Its really hard to just over look it. Back in part I Sakura was a precious person to Sasuke. But he left the leaf to sever those bonds. Yes, Team 7 is probably still there deep deep deep down in his heart. But the only time those feelings have ever resurfaced was when he thought of his old team during his fight with Killer Bee and he didn't single Sakura out specifically in any special kind of way. She came up in his mind in the context of his former team, team 7. Back then, Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, they were all precious to Sasuke, even if he didn't want to admit it. They were part of the surrogate family team 7 had provided for him, the family that helped fill the void the loss of his real one had left.

A smirk from Sasuke being impressed at Sakura's new abilities is not enough to make up for hundreds of chapters of Sasuke not remotely thinking of Sakura romantically. I'm going to need something more solid than a smirk. Even when she pops up in a flashback of his in 639, its in the context of team 7 and his focus is on Naruto. To say that she got special treatment because her face didn't get slashed would mean that Kakashi is also special to Sasuke because he also didn't get cut out of the picture. What makes more sense is that the scene was mainly to show Sasuke's hyper-focus on Naruto. You're telling me all that time Sasuke's been gone, he couldn't at least think of Sakura just once? Even if it was just a passing thought? Mentioned her specifically at least, like he has Naruto? Anything that could have been counted as positive development from him. Romance is just not Sasuke's focus. Was it really necessarily to wait till the second half of the last arc of the manga to have Sasuke begin to show the slightest interest in Sakura since part I? I'm not saying that SS is impossible, but I'm also not going to ignore the glaring flaws in the ship.

Like I said before, the only thing NH and SS really have in common is a common enemy: NS. That's why the two have been shipped together since the beginning of time. But just because one becomes canon doesn't mean the other definitely will or will not. And It's not SS's iffish development that prevents me from liking it, Its that every time I think about SS, Sakura's relationship with Sasuke and how much pain and stress it has been and will be on Sakura's heart. I always have the same reaction "poor girl", I always feel bad for her and end up feeling a little depressed (not exactly the best shipping feels to have). Especially with how the manga is currently unfolding, rocky times lie ahead for Sakura and SS. I get some people like tragic ships, but the drama and tragedy of it doesn't excite or move me, it's depressing. That's probably why I gravitated towards Naruhina, which is generally considered a fluff ship. I do like some SS scenes, like I felt like the Hug in the forest of death and Sakura's confession to Sasuke (it was like their entire relationship in a nutshell) was very well done. But it was probably around the apple-slap scene that I started to loose taste for SS (too much real life I guess). But it's not like all SS fans like NH either, the biggest complaint I've heard is that NH is too boring *shrug*


Last edited by Aelita on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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