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my sasusaku rant

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my sasusaku rant

Post by itachi75 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:31 pm

Alright here is my Sasusaku rant.
-
alright for me i like and hate Sasusaku.
-so i hope some of you can help me out here.
-
first off i want to talk about Sakura's love/obsessiveness over sasuke. i mean the guys nearly kills you twice and threatens to murder your clan to the last crying baby infant, but you still love him, even though he never apologized, and when he shows up you ignore naruto the guy who has always been there for you and you blush and fangirl over sasuke.
-
it is just really bad character development for her. i mean even Karin looked like she was going to murder sasuke, had he not apolgozed to her.
-
i mean i like how she will still care for him and still will die for him, but i feel that she should've at least have slugged him, or slapped him or something.
-
now as for Sasuke, i mean sakura was his light to his existence as Kishimoto said in hsi interview from part 1, Sasuke showed favoritism for her and wanted nothing more then to protect her in part 1, but in part 2 its like he will forget all of that and kill her iwht the drop of the hat.
-
but even then in all their meetings especially recently, Sakura is always the person he talks to and Sakura is the first one they ntoice, showing their strong bond. it is just very weird for me, and even when Sakura used the seal to burst the ground, Sasuke gave his smile. and Sasuke rarely smiles especially at someone's jutsu.
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it is just really strange.
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i mean i like seeing them after they are together and i loved the filler episode where the duo held hands and in another episode were Sasuke walked with Sakura leaning on her and they both seemed to like it.
-
so i have a major love hate relationship with this. i like it, but at the same time it just is waaay to weird.
-

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:55 pm

(1) Sakura was trying to kill Sasuke herself. It doesn't matter that Sasuke tried to kill her when she was trying to do the same.

(2) Sakura is not obligated to love Naruto because they are teammates. Do you have the same standard for Hinata? I'm sure that over the years that Kiba and/or Shino saved Hinata or helped her out quite a bit. Hinata is still in love with Naruto, who she does not see as often as those two.

(3) Sakura is allowed to be happy that the person she loves helped her out unless you are upset that Hinata used thoughts of Naruto holding her hand & smiling to help her finally complete the 64 Palms.

(4) Why should Sakura stop healing Naruto to harm Sasuke who just said he's there to help them win the war when they need all the help that they can get to do it? Comparing Sakura's reaction to Karin's (who was not in the middle of a war) is ridiculous.

(5) Sasuke could always read Sakura best. If you think that he didn't know that Sakura was lying to him about wanting to "join him" (which Kakashi's arrival proved without a doubt was a lie), I don't think you remember Sasuke->Sakura from Part 1 as well as you think you do.

Last but not least, Sakura is not obsessed with Sasuke at all. She is in love with him. Stop disrespecting her feelings by calling it an obsession. If she was obsessed with him, she would've been serious about joining him when she was really there to kill him.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:57 pm

Sakura is not obsessed with Sasuke. She is not a fangirl, she is in love with him. This has been plainly stated time and time again. Sakura has not been a fangirl for a long time now. Honestly, even compare her reactions with Sasuke from the beginning of Part I, toward the middle of Part I onward.


I mean the guys nearly kills you twice and threatens to murder your clan to the last crying baby infant, but you still love him, even though he never apologized, and when he shows up you ignore naruto the guy who has always been there for you and you blush and fangirl over sasuke.


First of all, it doesn't matter if Naruto was there for her, she doesn't owe him anything but her respect and loyalty. I'll excuse her for being excited that the guy who she's been emotionally shattered over being consumed by darkness is finally on their side, fighting. She also didn't ignore Naruto as she addressed both of them when she spoke next.

Next, who does what Sasuke had done and then honestly believes that an apology would be enough to make it all okay? The fact that Kishi had Sasuke apologize with a mere "sorry" to Karin shows the vast differences between the relationships. Sasuke owes both Naruto and Sakura a hell of a lot more than just a weak little "sorry." They've suffered for years, been in pain and had to endure a lot of heartache for him, but they did it anyway because they love and care about him.

If Sasuke really wants to repent to them, he'll need much more than just words. A start is to help them in this war, which is what he's doing. To be honest, the fact that Karin switched from angry to alright as soon as he apologized so weakly just made it very clear who is the fangirl and who is not. The fact that Sakura was the only girl who is known to like Sasuke that didn't try to run to him or anything him straight away-was Sakura.

Ino had to be reminded by her teammates Sasuke was dangerous as she ran up at him. Karin hugged up on him. Sakura was the only one of them (the girls) who asked questions.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/631/naruto-4167287.jpg
http://i21.mangapanda.com/naruto/631/naruto-4167289.jpg

And as usual, she's the first person he addresses.

Sakura is allowed to forgive Sasuke for what he did, just as much as Naruto is. After all, Naruto was also nearly killed by Sasuke back at VoTE. Yet look at how persistent he still was at getting him back. It's exactly what I've said in another thread. People love to hold SS to a standard they don't hold other relationships to.

http://i5.mangapanda.com/naruto/483/naruto-1210377.jpg

Sakura tried to kill Sasuke, Sasuke already told her what he was planning when she got there, so it's not like she didn't know her life was at stake. He didn't surprise her with this like he did Naruto ("he's really trying to kill me!") and poor Karin when he just chidori stabbed her without a second thought.

Sasuke was clearly suspicious of her from the start. Sakura even uses her confession to him to try and convince him that she would help him. But Sasuke is known to tell when Sakura is hiding something.

Sasuke went crazy and decided some shit that wasn't right, but if Naruto and Sakura can forgive him for it, I don't see why it has to be an issue, when Naruto forgave Gaara, Bee forgave Motoi, Sasuke forgave Itachi (after all the mind fucking and manipulation and making him believe he was really going to kill him), Hiruzen even still looked upon Orochimaru with affection despite everything wrong he'd done.

Sakura can love him, forgive him, but still be cautious and suspicious about what he's planning all at once. I don't find that "fangirling" at all. I mean just look at Karin. Now she's just talking about Sasuke again like nothing happened. Sure she notes "he tried to kill me" but that's overshadowed by her obvious fangasms. At least Sakura is still looking like she knows something is up.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Batokusanagi on Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:46 pm

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:(1) Sakura was trying to kill Sasuke herself. It doesn't matter that Sasuke tried to kill her when she was trying to do the same.
It doesn't matter? Man, I can't imagine shipping SS.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:53 pm

^
It does matter, but I can see the argument being that they both made the mistake, acting on a mix of already heightened emotions and paranoia rather than cold-bloodedness.
I don't ship SS, and while I do see this as an obstacle to the relationship, Kishi has already written an out, which is the whole plot thread about revealing the truth of the Uchiha Massacre which would cause Sakura to understand Sasuke's actions and Sasuke would understand Sakura's actions against him as he is a missing-nin.


itachi75 wrote:
Spoiler:
Alright here is my Sasusaku rant.
-
alright for me i like and hate Sasusaku.
-so i hope some of you can help me out here.
-
first off i want to talk about Sakura's love/obsessiveness over sasuke. i mean the guys nearly kills you twice and threatens to murder your clan to the last crying baby infant, but you still love him, even though he never apologized, and when he shows up you ignore naruto the guy who has always been there for you and you blush and fangirl over sasuke.
-
it is just really bad character development for her. i mean even Karin looked like she was going to murder sasuke, had he not apolgozed to her.
-
i mean i like how she will still care for him and still will die for him, but i feel that she should've at least have slugged him, or slapped him or something.
-
now as for Sasuke, i mean sakura was his light to his existence as Kishimoto said in hsi interview from part 1, Sasuke showed favoritism for her and wanted nothing more then to protect her in part 1, but in part 2 its like he will forget all of that and kill her iwht the drop of the hat.
-
but even then in all their meetings especially recently, Sakura is always the person he talks to and Sakura is the first one they ntoice, showing their strong bond. it is just very weird for me, and even when Sakura used the seal to burst the ground, Sasuke gave his smile. and Sasuke rarely smiles especially at someone's jutsu.
-
it is just really strange.
-
i mean i like seeing them after they are together and i loved the filler episode where the duo held hands and in another episode were Sasuke walked with Sakura leaning on her and they both seemed to like it.
-
so i have a major love hate relationship with this. i like it, but at the same time it just is waaay to weird.
-

1) I don't think it's that strange. Her love for him is being treated as unconditional and she shouldn't fall in love with Naruto out of a sense of obligation. I would find that even weirder and it would prove that you were in fact right and she was just a Sasuke fangirl.

2) The relationship with Sasuke hasn't finished developing yet, so it's too soon to judge exactly how terrible it is for her to be in love with him, it has reached crisis points, but I think both Sasuke and Sakura have become better people since then.

3) Maybe she will call him out on his mistakes later after she can fully comprehend his actions. Again, the relationship has not fully developed yet, so it's to soon for me to judge it by that now.

I don't know what to think about Sasuke's end of this relationship though, it's pretty confusing for me lol. Sometimes I think there may be something there, other times I completely dismiss it. lol.

His character has never been romantically focused so it's hard for me to gauge his actions as romantic, friendly, or just Sasuke being Sasuke. I know Naruto has had romantic interest and it's easy to really easy to apply romantic subtext when it comes to scenes with his love interest(s). Sasuke is hard to read for me when it comes to this, his actions are very subtle that they could be mere mirages or actual buildup towards some relationship. His actions Kage Summit onward just served to further confuse me about this aspect of his character.

Love is key to Naruto's and Sasuke's development, but seeing as it was Kushina talking to Naruto about love being necessary to conquer his demons, it emphasizes romantic love and parental love as the type of love she is talking about as she talks about meeting Minato and how he changed her and how they both loved Naruto to the very end. When it comes to Sasuke, it's Tobirama and Itachi that talk to him about love, stressing familial love as the type of love being talked about here, which is further supported by the fact that losing and killing your clan, brothers specifically, was a major theme during these talks. Not to mention that both Naruto and Sasuke have "epiphany" moments about what it means to be a shinobi at about the same time. Hinata is in Naruto's thoughts, along with everyone who gave their lives for him, while Sasuke thinks only of Itachi as the one who changed him.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:47 pm

Batokusanagi wrote:
Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:(1) Sakura was trying to kill Sasuke herself. It doesn't matter that Sasuke tried to kill her when she was trying to do the same.
It doesn't matter? Man, I can't imagine shipping SS.


This is what I think;
I personally think it does matter that Sasuke tried to kill Sakura. Sakura, as a shinobi was obligated to go after Sasuke, as he was a threat to Konoha and the nation. Sasuke, having finally snapped, was planning to take them all out in order to achieve his idea of revenge as he felt Konoha was responsible for what happened. Sakura has always wanted a happy ending for them all, and ultimately wanted Sasuke to be truly happy.

She is emotionally shattered at the thought that Sasuke has drifted so far into the darkness that he can never return. She'd hoped to help save him all this time, and now it's looking like time is up, There's nothing neither she nor Naruto can do to help him. The only thing she feels she can do at this point to save him from the depths of darkness is to take his life.

Because she loves him she would choose to take the life of the one she loves so much that it is painful that he is not there. the Sakura of 181 may have grown and matured, but the girl who confessed her love that night to Sasuke is still here.

Sakura loves Sasuke and wants his happiness. And yes although she also is shown to want his  acknowledgment of her romantically in Part I, I believe at this point, she's far more concerned with what path he is on. She has grown to where she will no longer follow Sasuke wherever, but she wasn't emotionally strong enough kill him. The "Thank You" scene is the one that stilled her hand.

I believe that his thank you spoke volumes to her. I think it's because she believes that Sasuke does want to be happy, but his need for revenge stopped him from going down that path. He needed (at the time) to avenge his clan's death, which is the toughest thing for him to do as Itachi is the brother he loved more than anything...and he slaughtered his entire clan, and I do believe that the Sasuke of that fateful night, albeit older and (perhaps a bit wiser now), is still there as well, I feel what happened with him during Obito's 'truth' about Itachi showed that.

Sakura, she'd seen glimpses of the darkness rising inside him a few times before, the FoD being a memorable one, and the Hospital Scene being another. If Sakura is able to forgive him for what he's done and planned to do, and he is now on their side (though his methods for going about protecting Konoha are still questionable right now), and be able to believe again in a happy ending for all of them (T7), while Naruto likewise, is able to forgive Sasuke for trying to take out his comrades and Konoha, including himself, I don't see what is stopping SS other than Sasuke rejecting Sasuke romantically in the end.

Of course, that's once Sasuke stops with this whole Bijuu extermination thing. I'm not sure what Kishi is planning with this really, but I'm positive he won't end this manga with Sasuke evil or dead. So hopefully.

Other than that, if all goes well, I personally don't see why Kishi would let Naruto be acknowledged by Sasuke like he's wanted deep down, and then not let Sakura have the acknowledgment she wanted from Sasuke, especially after spending 600+ chapters stuck on him. And why Kishi would not have Sasuke end up happy with his comrades and someone who was once deemed precious to him, and whose loved him even after everything he's done.

I guess I just can't imagine a more perfecting ending than this and NH right beside it. x3

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:32 am

Batokusanagi wrote:
Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:(1) Sakura was trying to kill Sasuke herself. It doesn't matter that Sasuke tried to kill her when she was trying to do the same.
It doesn't matter?

Why would it matter? It doesn't change the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke nor did it change that Sasuke treats Sakura differently.

At the time, Sakura was on one side and Sasuke was on the other. They were enemies of each other and they're ninjas. Their goals collided and they tried to kill each other. As a reader who knows more of the overall situation than either of them do, I think they were both silly. However, I can understand why they attempted what they did. I actually found it sad because knowing how Sasuke likes to talk to Sakura IF she had known what Naruto did regarding the Uchiha massacre, things not only would've gone differently (as Sakura would have the understanding that she's missing)--but we might've had Sasuke "back" sooner. Of course, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as exciting AND the Naruto vs. Sasuke stuff that Kishimoto has been trying to figure out to have happen for some contrived reason wouldn't happen.

The very first major arc of the series had Zabuza trying to kill Team 7 and once Gato did his double-cross that changed. If you are going to ignore the fact that fighting to kill is something that happens all the time when people are on "different sides," then I think you're not paying attention to the rules of the Naruto-universe.

Batokusanagi wrote:Man, I can't imagine shipping SS.

That's fine. No one is telling you have to do so.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Batokusanagi on Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:00 am

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:
Why would it matter? It doesn't change the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke nor did it change that Sasuke treats Sakura differently.
If by 'treats Sakura differently' differently you mean trying to murder her twice, you're right. If we were talking part 1, you'd have a point, but in part 2, there has been nothing positive going on between the two, quite the opposite. So, yeah, it does matter if you consider positive development important for a pairing.

SS, seems to me, is based on the assumption that part 1 Sasuke is still there and that once he lets go of his crazy ideas he'll be all love and kisses for Sakura, but the fact is he's a different guy than the Sasuke Sakura fell in love with.
Could she forgive the murder attempts? Yes, but what reason is there to keep loving Sasuke? "He talked to me" or "he smirked at my jutsu" are pretty weak ones. Sakura's unconditional love for Sasuke may be seen as sweet in SS, but at this point is just based on her image of part 1 Sasuke and a hope for change in current Sasuke (that he just keeps shattering every chance he gets), with nothing actually coming from Sasuke. It'd better for her to just drop the romantic feelings and, as Naruto, wish to only help Sasuke.

Someone said something about SSbeing held to a different standard and I have to agree: after murder attemps and a complete lack of development for a big chunk of the story, any other pairing would've been declared dead.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Zori on Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:17 am

I don't ship SS , but Sakura really does love this guy and stuff . Maybe if Sasuke changes, just maybe, they can become canon.

My arguments are weak for SS because I dont ship, i never intend to so i don't have any arguments besides she loves sasuke.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:49 am

Batokusanagi wrote:
If by 'treats Sakura differently' differently you mean trying to murder her twice, you're right.


Sasuke also tried to murder Naruto as well (VoTe). and oh, Gaara tried to murder all of Team 7 (Gaara fight), yet people still say nothing about Naruto helping Sasuke, and says nothing about Naruto being buddy buddy with Gaara, yet Sakura loving Sasuke and wanting his happiness gets flack?

What, is she not allowed to be in love with him? What is with that? It's said that in rl life, SS would be over. In real life, so would Naruto/Sasuke friendship, Gaara/Naruto would never be friends, Itachi/Sasuke wouldn't be on the wavelength they are on now, etc. Fact is, nothing in Naruto would come out like it did in real life because in real life, things like attempted murder and going against one another isn't something people are "used" to on a day to day basis.

But in Ninjaworld? It's common for friends to become enemies and enemies to become friends. That's just how Kishi has set up his world. This is why I say SS is held to a higher standard while everything else is just brushed aside like it doesn't matter just as equally. If Sakura just saw Sasuke as a friend, there wouldn't be an issue, people wouldn't be saying anything. But because she's in love with him, now it's an issue. Which is absolutely ridiculous to me.

Kishi wants to show that the bonds between others are unconditional. Sibling love, friendship love, romantic love. All unconditional. That means without condition. If Sakura stopped loving him for what he did, that is conditional love. She would have stopped loving him for something he's done. Sakura doesn't have that kind of love for him, which should be enough to show anyone she isn't just a "fangirl." She is in love with him, but she will not follow his dark path, but try to save him from him however she can. Even if it came to having to end his life to stop him from sinking further. But not out of newfound hate, but love.

My problem with this argument is that you shouldn't want to be friends or consider someone your friend anymore than you'd want to be with them after they've tried to kill you, or hell, tried to or threatened to kill your friends! And Sasuke aimed to kill Naruto in part I! What does it matter that he ended up just shoving it through his chest instead of his heart? He still premeditated his murder, it was just at that point, he hadn't sunk far enough to actually go through with it. By the time Kage Summit came around, this was no longer the case.


If we were talking part 1, you'd have a point, but in part 2, there has been nothing positive going on between the two, quite the opposite. So, yeah, it does matter if you consider positive development important for a pairing.


I consider Part I just as important as Part II. People act like Part I happened 20 years ago. It happened 2.5 years ago! And in that timeframe, characters have grown up, even matured a bit, but it's been clear that their Part I selves are still there. Naruto's, Sakura's and Sasuke's goals are all still the same, their paths different, their jutsu's stronger, their minds smarter, but they are still the product of Part I events. They are where they are now, because of Part I, so where are people getting this idea that Part I doesn't matter for SS is just..what?

Naruto was bff/rivals with Sasuke in Part I, as he states "you're my friend" in part II. Yet they have said or done nothing friendly since Part I, yet nobody says anything about that.

Yet SS? Oh, since Part I, nothing positive happened!
Okay, again, hold SS to a standard you don't hold others. Forget that Naruto and Sasuke so called friendship hasn't been featured since then either. He says they are friends, but can you think of one friendly interaction between them since Part I?

http://i35.mangapanda.com/naruto/486/naruto-1232594.jpg
http://i11.mangapanda.com/naruto/486/naruto-1232595.jpg
Sasuke: "WTF is wrong with you! Why would you go this far for me?!"
Naruto: Because we're friends!"

O RLY?

Because it looked to me like you were aiming to fight/kill each other this whole time. But hey, potato, potahto right?

Why were they fighting? Because they were on opposite sides. The things they each wanted conflicted with what Sasuke wanted, and that's why there were no "friendly/positive" interactions. Has nothing to do with SS being dead in the water.

Let's remember that most of Part II, SS was not only separated, but they didn't have time to sit there and have a talk. It was always clashing to try and bring him back, until they realized he'd reached darkness.  Of course they didn't have any time to speak, it's not like they were in any kind of position to do so, being on opposing sides and wanting different things and all. It would be a different story if Sasuke had been there and there was no real interaction, but he wasn't. He was literally very far away from them both. Which, had no effect on either Sakura or Naruto's feelings for him in the least.

Ever heard the saying "absence makes the heart grow fonder?"

After 2.5 years, Sakura is still giving the wide eyed look when she sees Sasuke, still loves him. After 2.5 years Naruto is  still tripping over himself to see him. So, if after this long, they are still very much stuck on Sasuke, what makes you think that it even matters whether or not their interactions were positive in Part II? It didn't matter their first reunion when he apparently tried to "kill" them all with Kirin. They still aimed to go after him. The feelings are still there. Sasuke still hasn't broken his bonds. And by the end of the story, I believe Kishi will have changed Sasuke in the way he's already changed Naruto and Sakura.

SS, seems to me, is based on the  assumption that part 1 Sasuke is still there and that once he lets go of his crazy ideas he'll be all love and kisses for Sakura, but the fact is he's a different guy than the Sasuke Sakura fell in love with.

I just don't know where people are getting the idea that SS is under this assumption. I've actually had this discussion with a NS before. I didn't realize that some NH thought this too. I also didn't realize that Sasuke Part I and Sasuke Part II were separate entities. They are the same person. He's grown, he's changed, but he is still Sasuke Uchiha, and she is still in love with him, flaws and all.

Spoiler:
I guess some seem to be under the impression that SS thinks Sasuke will just "go back" to his old self by the end of the story and thats where SS will come from...those people would be incorrect.

Because see, nobody from the beginning will be the same by the end. Each of them will have changed greatly in some way. It's called development. The Sasuke from the beginning was closed off to others, forced himself to remain distant, putting walls up around his feelings and was dead set on hate and revenge and thinking bonds were a curse.

This is not the Sasuke that's being aimed for.

The Sasuke I believe he will be at the end will be a Sasuke who fully accepts his bonds instead of trying to get rid of them, actually let's them in and acknowledges them both as they've so long desired. Someone no longer living his life for revenge, but cherishing and holding onto his new bonds he's made, wholeheartedly, a Sasuke who is truly happy.

Naruto, Sakura and many others have been through trials throughout this story thats improved and changed them for the better. I feel the same will [and is] happening to Sasuke. Because how can Kishi save him physically, but not mentally? Sasuke needs healing on the inside very much. Who better than someone that loves him unconditionally, who he was close enough to that he considered her precious to him?

I'm just saying, Sasuke finally fully opening his heart up can mean good things for SS. If Kishi plans to save him, what stops SS except a rejection from Sasuke? And since Kishi kept her feelings for him all this time? Well, I think it would be kind of weird to just have her rejected after all that, when he could have done it years ago with 181. Instead, he has Sasuke thank her for her love, though at the time he couldn't let her in. By the end of this story, I think he will.


Could she forgive the murder attempts? Yes, but what reason is there to keep loving Sasuke? "He talked to me" or "he smirked at my jutsu" are pretty weak ones.


How about that unconditional love is one of the themes of the story? Kishi is portraying this as one of the deep bonds of love and friendship.


Sakura's unconditional love for Sasuke may be seen as sweet in SS, but at this point is just based on her image of part 1 Sasuke and a hope for change in current Sasuke (that he just keeps shattering every chance he gets), with nothing actually coming from Sasuke. It'd better for her to just drop the romantic feelings and, as Naruto, wish to only help Sasuke.


Forgot that 540 shows her thinking of Darksuke, not Part I Sasuke?

People fail to realize that SS had a big chunk of it's development in part I. In that time frame, Sakura went from just another fangirl in the beginning, to FoD where she makes her big change. From then on, she's genuinely falling for him and wanting to help and his happiness, to where she would put her own life on the line to protect him. Sasuke went from "get off, don't hug me!" to simply allowing her to do so, and the expression on his face (Hospital) was enough to make Naruto leave.

Did anyone think that perhaps Kishi did this on purpose? That perhaps SS is mostly Part I because Kishi planned to have Sasuke leave by part II and knew they would have limited interaction? SS is the one ship that had a huge leap in development all in Part I. You saw he didn't offer the same kind of development for NH in Part I. Because they'd have plenty of time for that in Part II. SS wouldn't have this same luxury.

The only thing that stops SS is Sasuke's answer, and Sasuke needs to make his change now. Sasuke is the only one left of Team 7 who needs to make it. Sasuke changing his outlook would be an even bigger leap for SS. Add on Sasuke finding out she loves him still after everything (Itachi: I'll love you no matter what you do) and that Sakura still doesn't know the truth about what happened:

http://i14.mangapanda.com/naruto/485/naruto-1226712.jpg
http://i14.mangapanda.com/naruto/485/naruto-1226713.jpg
http://i6.mangapanda.com/naruto/485/naruto-1226715.jpg

I doubt that her still loving him will just fly over his head as "nothing." Love is a big part of this manga, of Kishi's themes, and Sakura's love will be addressed, I have every faith in this. Kishi also keeps stressing that Sasuke is a victim of the times, not a truly evil man, and that he can still be "painted any color" (Itachi to Naruto) if the right person comes along.

I believe that the only thing that stopped SS back then was his revenge, nothing else. Yet people say it's such a huge leap, when it actually isn't when you look back. Again, when it's all said and done, what will stop Sasuke from accepting her love?

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Aelita on Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:13 pm

Ok there are points that I agree with here and disagree with. I also kinda like this thread because it brings up the point that just because someone ships NH, doesn't necessarily mean they like SS (and vice versa). And that NH becoming canon doesn't necessarily mean SS will become canon (and vice versa). I too have a mixed relationship with Sasusaku where I don't hate it, but I don't really like it either.

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:2) Sakura is not obligated to love Naruto because they are teammates. Do you have the same standard for Hinata? I'm sure that over the years that Kiba and/or Shino saved Hinata or helped her out quite a bit. Hinata is still in love with Naruto, who she does not see as often as those two.
I strongly agree with bolded. While I have my issues with SS, the notion that Sakura should be in love with Naruto just because he's been good to her reaks of Nice Guy Syndrome. Love doesn't work that way, it has to come naturally. You can't force yourself to love someone. When you do, things like the false confession happen. There's nothing wrong with Sakura not being in love with Naruto. It's not like her relationship with Naruto hasn't developed. She doesn't treat him like she did in early part I, she grew to respect and care for him and they became close friends. She even stood up for Naruto against Sasuke when Sasuke called Naruto an outsider.Besides, chalking up her development to whether or not she loves Naruto or Sasuke reduces her to pairing fodder.
Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:(3) Sakura is allowed to be happy that the person she loves helped her out unless you are upset that Hinata used thoughts of Naruto holding her hand & smiling to help her finally complete the 64 Palms.
I also felt Sakura's reaction to Sasuke was more of Sakura being glad and excited that he's really on their side again rather than fangirling over him. Their last interaction was when Sauce was literally trying to slit her throat after all, so she's allowed to be happy to see him at his former "good" self.
Yamasaki Akaiko wrote: Last but not least, Sakura is not obsessed with Sasuke at all. She is in love with him. Stop disrespecting her feelings by calling it an obsession. If she was obsessed with him, she would've been serious about joining him when she was really there to kill him.
This. Sakura is no more 'obsessed' with Sasuke than Naruto is (well ok, maybe there was a little element of obsession lol). We saw Sakura grow out of her fan-girl crush stage back in Part I (remember that whole chunk of part I where her role was basically just worrying over Sasuke?). She started to view Sasuke as a human being with flaws rather than the super cool handsome perfect Sasuke she had idolized. Sakura is so devoted to bringing Sasuke home and stopping him from continuing on his dark path because she loves him. The only person who's been portrayed as truly obsessed with the person they're in love with is Obito, and maybe Karin.

Now starts the part where I start criticizing SS

Batokusanagi wrote:
If by 'treats Sakura differently' differently you mean trying to murder her twice, you're right. If we were talking part 1, you'd have a point, but in part 2, there has been nothing positive going on between the two, quite the opposite. So, yeah, it does matter if you consider positive development important for a pairing.

SS, seems to me, is based on the  assumption that part 1 Sasuke is still there and that once he lets go of his crazy ideas he'll be all love and kisses for Sakura, but the fact is he's a different guy than the Sasuke Sakura fell in love with.
Could she forgive the murder attempts? Yes, but what reason is there to keep loving Sasuke? "He talked to me" or "he smirked at my jutsu" are pretty weak ones. Sakura's unconditional love for Sasuke may be seen as sweet in SS, but at this point is just based on her image of part 1 Sasuke and a hope for change in current Sasuke (that he just keeps shattering every chance he gets), with nothing actually coming from Sasuke. It'd better for her to just drop the romantic feelings and, as Naruto, wish to only help Sasuke.

Someone said something about SS being held to a different standard and I have to agree: after murder attempts and a complete lack of development for a big chunk of the story, any other pairing would've been declared dead.
I'm going to have to agree with a lot of what Batokusangi has said here.

A glaring problem for SS is the lack of mutual development for all of Part II (I'm sorry, while the smirk did raise an eyebrow for me, that alone isn't going to cut it). Sakura has been single-handedly keeping this ship afloat for the longest. The last mutual development was during Sakura's confession to Sasuke and even then, whether or not Sasuke's response was meant to be romantic was ambiguous. The scene can also be seen as the possible conclusion for SS as the ship had lost quite a bit of momentum afterwards. That's a good half a manga without mutual development, part II is now longer than part I was. Sasuke had willingly cut off his bonds with all his leaf comrades, including Sakura. Whenever Sasuke even thinks of Sakura in part II they're either fighting as enemies or its in the context of Team 7. Romance is simply not his focus.

Another problem I have with SS is that there is never a reason given to why Sakura is in love with Sasuke. I feel like this is the piece of development that people complain is missing. And this piece of information is really important, because without it her love for Sasuke seems baseless, especially in the face of their circumstances.  The only reason Sakura has ever givien for liking Sasuke was that he was handsome and cool, but that was back in her fangirl crush-stage in the beginning of the manga. But a lot has changed since then. The lack of this reason also weakens the writing of this pairing imo. Why is Sakura so in love with Sasuke that she’s willing to put up with all the stress involved with trying to save him? I'm going to need a strong solid reason to be able to go along with all of this.

We know why Hinata loves Naruto so much that she'd be willing to give her life for him. We know why Naruto is so in love with hung up on Sasuke. Sasuke helped save Naruto from his loneliness, which Naruto had considered a personal hell. Sasuke was one of the first people he had bonded with. He became a precious person to Naruto, so much so that he considers him a brother.  And because of that, Naruto will go to the ends of the earth for him. As Gaara has said, "even if you know you're precious person is bad, a person can not defeat loneliness". Sasuke is the Zabuza to Naruto's Haku. It is because (like Sasuke) Naruto knew loneliness that he values the bonds he had developed with Sasuke and cares about Sasuke so much. That is why Naruto is so hellbent on saving his friend.

The reason given for why Sakura is so hung up on Sasuke is that she loves him. But why does she love him? What did she see in Sasuke that made her fall so in love with him that she's willing to put up with all the insanity and stress required in bringing him home? Believing that Sasuke could be reached somewhere may explain why Sakura continued to love him, but it doesn't answer the core reason why she fell in love him in the first place. We're never given a reason. All we know is that Sakura's serious about being in love with him through how she acts.

I feel like Sakura will continue to be in love with Sasuke (well at least until Sasuke truly returns to the good side), really because her love for him is also kind of a plot device. Beyond being former teammates, if you removed Sakura’s love for him, what is Sakura’s bond to Sasuke? What reason does she have to put up with the craziness involved with trying to bring him back? Its not like the solid understanding of each others struggles between Naruto and Sasuke. But Sakura's character needs a reason be down to ride with Naruto on their quest to bring Sasuke’s butt back home. So in love with him she stays.

I also have a hard time rooting for this ship because while I acknowledge and respect Sakura's love for Sasuke, whenever I think about Sakura, her relationship with Sasuke and SasuSaku, and how much stress and pain it has and will cause her, I always end up thinking "poor girl".  Sasuke isn't exactly a great catch (no offense to Sauce). And with how events in the manga are unfolding, rocky times lie ahead for Sakura and her relationship with Sasuke. And I always end up feeling bad for her, it prevents me from liking the ship. All I want her to able able to have a happy ending with team 7 whether she ends up romantically involved with Sasuke or not.

I wouldn't say SS is dead, it is still possible, but part of me would still want to roll my eyes if it happened, though I wouldn't be upset really.


Last edited by Aelita on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by itachi75 on Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:05 pm

idk like i said i am very confused. i really enjoy the pairing, but at the same time i hate it almost as much as NS, sometimes i perfer NS more, and sometimes SS is my OTP.
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So this pairing is making all kinds of turns in my head.
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its like rolling a dice. sometimes it is a favorable outcome and sometimes it is a hateful outcome.
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I am just glad for NH i never have any doubt and that that pairing makes the most sense.
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but i mean i have been re-reading the manga and i am very close to being down, and i must admit that NH is seriously endgame, i am not even reading it to be biased its just NS completely died at the failfession. i was rereading everything unbiased and i totally saw it end.
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but as for SS while i have just gotten finished with Kushina's story. i feel that SS is very close to being endgame becuase it is the only pairing that resembles Minakushina. Sasuke is alot like minato, and Kushina is obviously like Sakura. Sasuke is overpowered with a shitton of jutsu, and especially how he was during the gaara fight reminds me alot of Minato, and for Kushina while obviously sakura.
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so that is my view on the endgames.
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but none of this is my point.
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i don't know, on one hand i am proud of Sakura for keeping her love for Sasuke, but on the other hand i hate her for it, becuase you simply don't love someone who tried to murder you!
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as for sasuke i perfer him being asexual i feel giving him sexual feelings would be the equivalent of giving Luffy sexual feelings.
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result?
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Charlie sheen V. 2.0
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exactly like RTN Sasuke.
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but then again, i feel that Sasuke finnaly acknowelging Sakura would be a beautfiul scene.
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so like i said this whole thing irritates me becuase i love it and i hate it.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Batokusanagi on Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:34 pm

Bubbles wrote:Sasuke also tried to murder Naruto as well (VoTe). and oh, Gaara tried to murder all of Team 7 (Gaara fight), yet people still say nothing about Naruto helping Sasuke, and says nothing about Naruto being buddy buddy with Gaara, yet Sakura loving Sasuke and wanting his happiness gets flack?
Naruto has gotten A LOT of hate for his continued pursue of Sasuke. Though his "obsession" with Sasuke actually has a strong foundation. Same goes for Gaara's conversion.
The same can't be said about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke, perhaps that's why she get more hate than Naruto.

What, is she not allowed to be in love with him? What is with that? It's said that in rl life, SS would be over. In real life, so would Naruto/Sasuke friendship, Gaara/Naruto would never be friends, Itachi/Sasuke wouldn't be on the wavelength they are on now, etc. Fact is, nothing in Naruto would come out like it did in real life because in real life, things like attempted murder and going against one another isn't something people are "used" to on a day to day basis.
She can love him, but she really has 0 reasons to do so, aside from her hope that Sasuke will become the man she fell in love with again. I already talked about forgiveness in my post, which is what we got with Naruto and Gaara and Sasuke and Itachi.

But in Ninjaworld? It's common for friends to become enemies and enemies to become friends. That's just how Kishi has set up his world. This is why I say SS is held to a higher standard while everything else is just brushed aside like it doesn't matter just as equally. If Sakura just saw Sasuke as a friend, there wouldn't be an issue, people wouldn't be saying anything. But because she's in love with him, now it's an issue. Which is absolutely ridiculous to me.
I think you're holding the ninja world to standard it doesn't have. Unless you're Haku and believe that you're just a tool, murder attempts break relationships. You mentioned Gaara, he was hated by his village, but because of Naruto came around and was forgiven, yeah, I agree that's a thing in this manga and that may indeed happen to Sasuke as well, but as of now he's not giving any signs of that. Basically Sakura is in love with a guy who's hand wouldn't tremble even a little bit to take her life is she gets in the way.

Kishi wants to show that the bonds between others are unconditional. Sibling love, friendship love, romantic love. All unconditional. That means without condition. If Sakura stopped loving him for what he did, that is conditional love. She would have stopped loving him for something he's done. Sakura doesn't have that kind of love for him, which should be enough to show anyone she isn't just a "fangirl." She is in love with him, but she will not follow his dark path, but try to save him from him however she can. Even if it came to having to end his life to stop him from sinking further. But not out of newfound hate, but love.
Sakura's also allowed to stop loving him. It'd be better for her, instead of having her hold on to a hope that hasn't been there at all for the entirety of part 2.

I consider Part I just as important as Part II. People act like Part I happened 20 years ago. It happened 2.5 years ago! And in that timeframe, characters have grown up, even matured a bit, but it's been clear that their Part I selves are still there. Naruto's, Sakura's and Sasuke's goals are all still the same, their paths different, their jutsu's stronger, their minds smarter, but they are still the product of Part I events. They are where they are now, because of Part I, so where are people getting this idea that Part I doesn't matter for SS is just..what?

Naruto was bff/rivals with Sasuke in Part I, as he states "you're my friend" in part II. Yet they have said or done nothing friendly since Part I, yet nobody says anything about that.
Sasuke has changed way too much to say part 1 is relevant for SS anymore. You say he's part 1 self is still there, but the manga says otherwise with a Sasuke that is letting go of his past and who's goal requires Naruto to die. Part 1 SS is basically irrelevant in the face of this changed Sasuke who doesn't really care about what anyone thinks of him (except Itachi).

Let's remember that most of Part II, SS was not only separated, but they didn't have time to sit there and have a talk. It was always clashing to try and bring him back, until they realized he'd reached darkness.  Of course they didn't have any time to speak, it's not like they were in any kind of position to do so, being on opposing sides and wanting different things and all. It would be a different story if Sasuke had been there and there was no real interaction, but he wasn't. He was literally very far away from them both. Which, had no effect on either Sakura or Naruto's feelings for him in the least.

Ever heard the saying "absence makes the heart grow fonder?"
Well, that's a nice excuse, but the fact is that the paring stopped developing after Sasuke left. Sakura may still love him, but that love is based on how part 1 Sasuke interacted with her. Unconditional love may be a thing, but damn, what about something positive from Sasuke that makes those feelings make sense? I don't think proper development is too much to ask for.

Sasuke still hasn't broken his bonds. And by the end of the story, I believe Kishi will have changed Sasuke in the way he's already changed Naruto and Sakura.
This is completely wrong. There's a reason he left the village to become stronger: he thought his bonds made him (and his resolve to kill Itachi) weaker. Recently he has decided to let go of his past.

I just don't know where people are getting the idea that SS is under this assumption. I've actually had this discussion with a NS before. I didn't realize that some NH thought this too. I also didn't realize that Sasuke Part I and Sasuke Part II were separate entities. They are the same person. He's grown, he's changed, but he is still Sasuke Uchiha, and she is still in love with him, flaws and all.
It comes from the fact that Sakura fell in love with part 1 Sasuke. That's when the unconditional love started. The though of part 1 Sasuke is what stopped her hand when she was planning to kill him, so she clearly is holding on that image of Sasuke. As for part 1 Sasuke and part 2 Sasuke being two different guys, well...
Spoiler:
Sasuke may become the guy you're hoping he becomes, but at this point he's not giving any signs of that, he hasn't in part 2 at all. I though that after meeting Itachi and the Hokage he'd change for the better, but he didn't. Though, yeah, if Sasuke does become the guy you're hoping he becomes, then a rejection would be the only thing stopping SS. But again, that transformation is just not happening, Sasuke is actually getting worse.
Maybe that's another thing that seems off about SS for me. It's based on hopes for the future instead of something present and concrete. I guess, SS could happen in an epilogue or something, but right now in the story, there's nothing indicating that it will.

How about that unconditional love is one of the themes of the story? Kishi is portraying this as one of the deep bonds of love and friendship.
I'm asking for an actual reason, "she loves him because she has to" is NOT  a good reason. Hinata's love has also been show as unconditional, but at least she can look at current Naruto say why she loves him. That's something that Sakura just can't do.

Forgot that 540 shows her thinking of Darksuke, not Part I Sasuke?
With a sad expression on her face because that's NOT the Sasuke she loves.

Did anyone think that perhaps Kishi did this on purpose? That perhaps SS is mostly Part I because Kishi planned to have Sasuke leave by part II and knew they would have limited interaction? SS is the one ship that had a huge leap in development all in Part I. You saw he didn't offer the same kind of development for NH in Part I. Because they'd have plenty of time for that in Part II. SS wouldn't have this same luxury.
Or maybe he didn't...? This point is up in the air, we'll see.

Aelita wrote:I wouldn't say SS is dead, it is still possible, but part of me would still want to roll my eyes if it happened, though I wouldn't be upset really.  
I'm not saying it's dead, but I thought (unless it's a crack ship) that development (as up-to-date as possible) was important for a pairing.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Strawberry on Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:27 am

Interesting debate. Though I haven't read it all, to be honest. But to give my two cents regarding this pairing I will say this, Kishimoto has done terrible things to the pairing SasuSaku in part 2. And I'm not just talking about the murder attempts, because in my own personal opinion, "He tried to kill her" is the most simplistic way to put it. In that particular situation, they were both in the wrong. That being said, two wrongs don't make a right.

Firstly, we got Sakura, who claimed in part 1 how she wanted Sasuke to tell her stuff so she could understand him better, but in part 2 decided to "give up on him" and tried to plot something against him to kill him herself. She didn't give him the benefit of the doubt, she didn't discuss things with Naruto nor Kakashi, the people who knew him the most and people who actually found out the truth behind Sasuke's actions. Even when they wouldn't tell her anything, just seeing Sakura give up on Sasuke so easily after Sai told her she was hurting Naruto was not a good thing for SasuSaku.

Then we have Sasuke, who's been an emotional mess after everything he's been through. He doesn't know how to control his emotions nor think clearly. He didn't just attempt to kill Sakura, he also threatened to kill every one of his friends and destroy his village. I don't think it's impossible for him to be redeemed at all, but I don't know what consequences or repercussions his actions will bring him. Especially when his mindset is still "I don't care what any of you think of me", it's not going to be easy to make people trust him. And it's not going to be easy for him to trust people, when Sakura, one of those people he considered precious to him, gave up on him and did what she did.

I, personally, think Sasuke knew what Sakura was up to when she said she wanted to join him. He didn't trust her for a second, hence why he asked her to kill Karin, because he knew very well she was up to something. Still, like I said, two wrongs don't make a right, that doesn't justify Sasuke's actions and it makes them both equally guilty instead.

I don't know how Sakura will feel once she finds out the truth about Sasuke and Itachi. She'd probably be able to understand to some extent Sasuke's actions, but I doubt she can give the level of understanding someone like Sasuke needs. Sakura hasn't shown, to me at least, that she's able to do that. There's also Sasuke, whose change feels like it's not completely done yet. I think there are a few more bumps in the road in order for Sasuke to be fully redeemed and mentally healed.

It's possible that SasuSaku might happen, I won't deny that. But I just don't think there's a way for it to happen that I'd like. That's all.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:21 am

I've read somewhere before a small idea on why Naruto and Sakura weren't getting anywhere with Sasuke. It's because they switched. Naruto can only get through to Sasuke with his fists, he's never really been able to talk him down with words, that's Sakura. But instead of words, this whole time she's been trying to force him to come back.

Instead of asking the questions, she just tried to take him out. Sakura is one to ask why, but she never did bother to ask him why he was doing what he was doing herself. Like Strawberry said, Sakura wanted Sasuke to talk to her to understand him in the past, but now she didnt really bother. Thats one mistake made.

Kishi really did a number at kage summit, but I believe he challenged everyone in team 7 that day.

What would Naruto do in this situation? First, we saw him questioning Sasuke and whether or not he was truly lost (until Obito told him the "truth") so it's not a surprise that Sakura, who is less determined than him, gave up while still being i  the dark. We see him hyperventilating, willing to bow down and take a beating to save Sasuke. Not very flattering.

We see Kakashi admitting his mistakes as a sensei, we see Sakura could do nothing but cry when Karui called her "annoying" and "what exactly is sasuke to you?" We see her trying to put duty over love and shut down her emotions, which has always been her toughest thing to overcome especially when it comes to Sasuke and love [LoW.]

We see Sasuke, having snapped willing to take out even Sakura, which was highlighted as being him truly falling low, also he's still arrogant and not accepting Naruto as equal to him. Yet despite all this, Kishi gives them faith back into T7.

Only to crush this hope again later? I hope not. That summit challenged everyone in the team, they've endured so much, I cant see an ending not happy and be satisfied, they deserve it.

I like these kind of conversations. Everyone can put their thoughts in, get their frustrations and questions out. I for one have my worries, frustrations and questions too.
 

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by RosettaMyst on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:13 am

Very interesting debate indeed. Like Itachi75, I also have my mixed feelings about sasusaku as well. There would be times when I would hate it, then there would be times I would be okay with it. But as of lately, thanks to someone I follow on tumblr, it's kind of.....starting to grow on me..... And sasusaku is possible and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's the most popular Naruto pairing in Japan. (But of course, Kishi can be a troll at times) Just my 2 cents.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Bubbles on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:18 am

Well , most popular het pairing course. KakaIru I hear still takes first place.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:53 pm

Seeing as though SS gets as much development as NH it's only fair that it becomes canon too.

I mean they're both insane people and don't have enough emotional maturity between them to fill a shot glass though.

For all the development SS gets, exactly what has shown that they even remotely understand each other?

Its not a good sign when Naruto is a bastion of maturity compared to them.

But misery loves company so the SS ship may as well come to port.

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Irielo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:19 am

I agree with Batokusanagi. As far as I'm concerned, I'd wish some SasuSaku developments to believe in it.

So much things happened since part 1 that confuses the situation of this pairing right now.

If Sasuke does not change his attitude, I can't see SasuSaku happening because Sakura is not blind. She would understand him for sure better if she came to know about the truth with Itachi etc. But that does not mean that she will approve all his actions and follow him blindly.


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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:33 am

Irielo wrote:I agree with Batokusanagi. As far as I'm concerned, I'd wish some SasuSaku developments to believe in it.

So much things happened since part 1 that confuses the situation of this pairing right now.

If Sasuke does not change his attitude, I can't see SasuSaku happening because Sakura is not blind. She would understand him for sure better if she came to know about the truth with Itachi etc. But that does not mean that she will approve all his actions and follow him blindly.


I want you to picture this scenario.

The war is over, the enemy is defeated. Sasuke announces that he intends to become hokage and change the world to avoid future wars. He also says he will erase the past to make this possible (killing naruto) he then speaks personally to Sakura and asks her to take his hand and join his side.

I say she joins him.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Aelita on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:41 am

Batokusanagi wrote:
I'm not saying it's dead, but I thought (unless it's a crack ship) that development (as up-to-date as possible) was important for a pairing.

Lol that's why I said part of me would want to roll my eyes if it becomes canon, even though I know it still has a chance. The lack of development on Sasuke's end for a good half a manga (plus how ambiguous his end of the SS development was back in part I), and the lack of a foundation for Sakura's love are two holes in SS that are hard to ignore.

I also feel like there's an overestimation on how much sway Sakura holds over Sasuke. She's only been able to talk Sasuke out of something once and that was during the Hug in the forest of death. She wasn't able to convince him to withdraw from the Chunnin exams, she wasn't able to stop him from fighting Naruto on the hospital rooftop, and she wasn't able to convince him into staying in Konoha. He may consider her pleas, but for the most part Sasuke does what he damn well pleases. So I think her knowing about the massacre and talking to him about it would have blown over similarly to how it did when Naruto talked him, knowing about the massacre. There'd probably be a similar "you couldn't possibly understand/you're an outsider/we're different/we're on different paths" response (similar to how he responded to her pleas to remain in Konoha). And never haven gone through true loneliness or dealt with the pain of having a loved one taken from you and desiring revenge, she would have been less equipped to handle that response.

I'm also having trouble buying into this "Sasuke's very perceptive with Sakura, he knew right away she was up to something". We've also seen from her false confession to Naruto that Sakura's a crap liar in general =/ Honestly her entire plan to take Sasuke down in the Kage summit was really shoddy and easy to see through. I could see why someone would argue that during the early Chunnin Exam era in part I, but this is a completely different scenario. Sasuke's attack on Sakura is basically the equivalent of Sakura counterattacking the Neji-Zetsu clone in the War arc, but still, not the best thing to happen for romantic development.

@engetsu I don't think she'd join him, or else she'd have joined him a long time ago. I doubt she'd betray Naruto (that is if she were aware of Sasuke's intentions), he's precious to her too after all. More likely she'd take a Naruto-like "I will find a way to stop you, protect my village and comrades without killing you" stance. Plus when it's time for Sasuke and Naruto to have their show down I'm willing to bet that Kishi's going to have Sakura disappear for a little while (like he always does) and not be that involved.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Irielo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:29 am

engetsu wrote:I want you to picture this scenario.

The war is over, the enemy is defeated. Sasuke announces that he intends to become hokage and change the world to avoid future wars. He also says he will erase the past to make this possible (killing naruto) he then speaks personally to Sakura and asks her to take his hand and join his side.

I say she joins him.

Lol That was a good joke. But seriously, if Sakura wanted to follow Sasuke, she would have done it a long time ago. When Sasuke left Konoha in Part 1, she used her feelings for him to stop him and not to follow him. In part 2, during the Kage summit, she was ready to kill him but the memories of her feelings for him made her hesitant.

She is not like Karin who can follow Sasuke no matter what he does and if there's no future SasuSaku developments, I'll start to think that Sakura still remembers the feelings she had for Sasuke but that she is over them. As far as Sasuke is concerned, his romantic feelings are still a mystery to me... He tried to kill Naruto to severe his bonds with him to become stronger, now he wants to erase the past. Could it be that Naruto is somehow more important than Sakura to Sasuke???  

How does he value Sakura and how does he value Naruto? How does he feel deep inside? This is still an enigma which has to be solved.

Don't get me wrong, it's not because I support NaruHina that I have to support automatically SasuSaku. Something MUST happen to convince me about it.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by SenpaiSamaSan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:47 am

Yeah, I mostly agree with Aelita, Irielo, and Batokusanagi on this issue.

While I can see and respect Sakura's end of this relationship, what comes from this mostly benefits only her, Sasuke is not swayed or changed in his motives at all in these moments. It's made almost explicitly so you can sympathize with Sakura and have hope for Sasuke to change, but he never does.

Sasuke is very much a Byronic Hero, a rich, empowered, nobleman living in exile, fighting against the system and culture of his age, strong, shrewd, broodingly attractive male with a troubled past who has no trouble getting the ladies to notice him. The focus on his character surrounds his descent towards the darkness that was started by his brothers actions with sparked Sasuke's revenge and fueled by his jealousy with his rivalry with Naruto. Once he learned the truth about his brother, he went from crazed "I'll kill all of you damn villagers!" to "I'll protect the damn village, no matter who thinks I'm wrong, I'll do whatever it takes". That is a massive amount of character development.

All of this happened and Sakura could do nothing about it. Romance is not a big part of his character, it could be argued that it's not part of his character at all. Byronic hero's tend to not have lovey dovey endings, as they tend to have a cynical view of the world and relationships. Of course, this isn't be all end all, Sasuke may break the mold, especially in an optimistic story such as this one, but his character doesn't really leave much room for a romantic development.

SS will be important for Sakura's development, I have no doubt, and she may play a big role in Sasuke's character resolution towards the end of the manga but will they end up together? I really doubt it. The most optimistic outcome I can see is Kishi leaving a few vague hints that Sasuke may be reciprocating her feelings, but nothing really conclusive. It would be too fast now, I would have needed Sasuke thinking about Sakura's confession earlier on, maybe regretting attacking her but there is nothing like that yet, no cues for me sprinkled throughout the manga on his side to even start seriously believing that Sasuke cares much for affairs of the heart.

He's not callous, he can empathize, but his passions and ambitions are focused on his own rise to power, about achieving something greater than himself, namely the restoration of his clan's honor. He had wanted to do so by eliminating the village at first, but now he wishes for the prestige and title of Hokage. That's what Sasuke is all about to me, Honor and Pride above all other things.

The loving aspect of his character has always been attached to his brother and his clan, so if he is redeemed and the old pre-massacre Sasuke is restored, it's this type of love that will be dominant in his heart as it is an already established trait of his character.
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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by Irielo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:59 am

@ SenpaiSamaSan "Honor and Pride above all". That's a good definition of Sasuke's perspective and if he needs to restore his clan in a literal way, then he would need a woman... But will it imply romantic feelings from him? Not necessarily.

I can imagine Sasuke using a woman only for reproduction purposes... and Sakura for sure won't accept to be used as a tool in opposition to Karin for instance...

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Re: my sasusaku rant

Post by engetsu on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:02 am

SenpaiSamaSan wrote:Yeah, I mostly agree with Aelita, Irielo, and Batokusanagi on this issue.

While I can see and respect Sakura's end of this relationship, what comes from this mostly benefits only her, Sasuke is not swayed or changed in his motives at all in these moments. It's made almost explicitly so you can sympathize with Sakura and have hope for Sasuke to change, but he never does.

Sasuke is very much a Byronic Hero, a rich, empowered, nobleman living in exile, fighting against the system and culture of his age, strong, shrewd, broodingly attractive male with a troubled past who has no trouble getting the ladies to notice him. The focus on his character surrounds his descent towards the darkness that was started by his brothers actions with sparked Sasuke's revenge and fueled by his jealousy with his rivalry with Naruto. Once he learned the truth about his brother, he went from crazed "I'll kill all of you damn villagers!" to "I'll protect the damn village, no matter who thinks I'm wrong, I'll do whatever it takes". That is a massive amount of character development.

All of this happened and Sakura could do nothing about it. Romance is not a big part of his character, it could be argued that it's not part of his character at all. Byronic hero's tend to not have lovey dovey endings, as they tend to have a cynical view of the world and relationships. Of course, this isn't be all end all, Sasuke may break the mold, especially in an optimistic story such as this one, but his character doesn't really leave much room for a romantic development.

SS will be important for Sakura's development, I have no doubt, and she may play a big role in Sasuke's character resolution towards the end of the manga but will they end up together? I really doubt it. The most optimistic outcome I can see is Kishi leaving a few vague hints that Sasuke may be reciprocating her feelings, but nothing really conclusive. It would be too fast now, I would have needed Sasuke thinking about Sakura's confession earlier on, maybe regretting attacking her but there is nothing like that yet, no cues for me sprinkled throughout the manga on his side to even start seriously believing that Sasuke cares much for affairs of the heart.

He's not callous, he can empathize, but his passions and ambitions are focused on his own rise to power, about achieving something greater than himself, namely the restoration of his clan's honor. He had wanted to do so by eliminating the village at first, but now he wishes for the prestige and title of Hokage. That's what Sasuke is all about to me, Honor and Pride above all other things.

The loving aspect of his character has always been attached to his brother and his clan, so if he is redeemed and the old pre-massacre Sasuke is restored, it's this type of love that will be dominant in his heart as it is an ady established trait of his character.


So your saying I'm right?
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