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Is Obito Justified in his actions

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by GreatKungLao on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:27 am

Strawberry wrote:I like comparing Obito to Sasuke, because there are similarities in their cases. Obito saw his best friend kill his crush, while Sasuke saw his brother kill his parents. I'd say Sasuke had it worse, and he was even younger than Obito was. Yes, Sasuke eventually gave in to Orochimaru, like Obito gave in to Madara, but even Sasuke at least tried to stay in the village and be "normal" like his friends. Obito didn't even try to go back to his family. There's also the fact that when Sasuke found out the truth about Itachi, even though it took him some time, he eventually decided that honoring Itachi's sacrifice was the best he could do. Obito found out the truth about Rin's death long ago, and he still doesn't care about her sacrifice, nor about what she stood up for.
You have miss one important thing - Sasuke wasn't told, that there is a possibility to create a world, where everybody is alive. This is one of the major things, that twisted Obito's mind.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Batokusanagi on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:30 am

51-mustang wrote:
Whao chill, I started this thread let people express their objective point of views on whether Obito was justified or not.

It was more than just Rin that made him the way he is, remember Madara had a part to play in it all, it wasn't just Rin that caused him to be the way he was, there was a chance that the Uchiha clan could have done something similar to Obito as well, so there could have been other reasons as to why Obito is doing what he is doing.
I'm chill. It was more than Rin? He keeps bringing her up time and time again. Even after he himself told Kakashi that it wasn't about Rin and him (Kakashi), so I'm not buying that. It's all Rin.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Strawberry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:42 am

GreatKungLao wrote:You have miss one important thing - Sasuke wasn't told, that there is a possibility to create a world, where everybody is alive. This is one of the major things, that twisted Obito's mind.
That's not enough, GreatKungLao. "Everybody" just comes down to Rin for Obito. That is actually the main problem I have with his character. Creating a world nobody wants to be a part of, just so that he could see Rin again, and not even the real Rin, but his idea of her. Sasuke was offered power instead of a dream world. He took it, but he still came around.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by GreatKungLao on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:45 am

Strawberry wrote:
GreatKungLao wrote:You have miss one important thing - Sasuke wasn't told, that there is a possibility to create a world, where everybody is alive. This is one of the major things, that twisted Obito's mind.
That's not enough, GreatKungLao. "Everybody" just comes down to Rin for Obito. That is actually the main problem I have with his character. Creating a world nobody wants to be a part of, just so that he could see Rin again, and not even the real Rin, but his idea of her. Sasuke was offered power instead of a dream world. He took it, but he still came around.
Spoiler:
Now imagine if right at this moment he was told "You can have power to create a world, where all of them will be alive".
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Strawberry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:46 am

^ He already knew about Obito's plan by then. He still wasn't interested.

*EDIT* He knows about the Moon's Eye Plan, and he doesn't want to be controlled by it. Itachi's sacrifice is worth more to him.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Haru Glory on Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:49 am

^ I don't recall Sasuke ever learning about Eye of the Moon. In fact aside from truth of Itachi Obito never really told Sasuke anything about his true motives.

Also I have to agree and disagree on the Obito and Sasuke comparison. While Sasuke's entire clan was slaughtered at a young age he was never influenced to annihilate all existence and the influence he had at the time of the massacre was Itachi motivating him to get revenge on solely him. With Orochimaru it was the same he was only influenced to get power and obtin his revenge. It was only until Obito manipulated him that he started to kill innocent people even then it was only to avenge his clan and destroy the Leaf Village. Never once was Sasuke manipulated to try and destroy an entire world like Obito was.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Strawberry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:38 pm

^ Sasuke knows about Obito's plan. It's not clear when he found out about it, but I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume he knew about it at the time, considering he knew Obito was after the biju. Nevertheless, he knows about it right now and he puts Itachi's wishes over his own desire to see his clan again, even though Sasuke had it harder than Obito. Their stories aren't exactly the same, but the principles pretty much are. Sasuke was also manipulated into taking revenge, but with time he came around.

Besides, it's really not enough, guys. The fact that Madara told Obito about a "dream world" is not enough of an excuse for him to turn out the way he did. He had a family, he had other friends he could've returned to, yet all he thought about was his ideal Rin? Also, how can he say he loves her when he never even spared a thought to what she wanted him to do? His back story could've been handled A LOT better, because honestly, to me it's not believable at all.

I can't take Obito's "reasoning" seriously, when we have a character such as Sasuke (just to give one example) who went through far worse, but still chooses to honor Itachi's wishes. We also have plenty of other characters with messed up childhoods. Had Obito had Itachi's, Naruto's, Sasuke's, Gaara's, Nagato's, Kimimaro's or even Haku's background story, his motives would be a lot more believable to me.

But that's just me, I guess. I suppose this is what happens when you have such high expectations for a character like I had for the masked man.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Haru Glory on Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:18 pm

^ Really? Sorry I don't really remember when it happened. Was shown it during the Kabuto fight or the 4 Hokage meeting? Yeah but Sasuke's desires were solely revenge but never to destroy existence. Had he been manipulated for that then he most likely would have ended up worse then Obito.

At that point Obito was extremely desperate and selfish, he didn't want to be in a reality where the life he had before "dying" would no longer be how he wanted it to be. Even with that stuff he was still a loser and was always beat out in everything. With all those guys they at least had someone to support them during their lows or had a motivation to continue going. Aside from Gaara who's mentality was morphed into becoming a killer that killed anyone who endangered him but still had a desire to be acknowledged.

I understand why you can't take it seriously and I respect it. But remember while Sasuke had it worse he had people who supported and kept him out of the darkness and even when he was in the darkness he was only ever influenced to take revenge on the Leaf.

I had high expectations as well and the only real disappointment to me is the fact that his reasoning wasn't explained thoroughly enough and wasn't given enough detail.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Graeystone on Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:34 am

As for Obito blaming Minato for Naruto, he has to no right to blame Minato for any of it. First of all Naruto forgave his father and mother. Second of all Obito started the events that caused Naruto to become Kurama's Host. Now that I think about it, Obito is really good with 'Excuses no Jutsu'. He blames everyone else for most of the @#$# that happens to him yet he never takes responsibility for any of the @#$# he causes. I'm not talking about the current stuff either. Look at Kakashi Gaiden - Obito was full of excuses from being late to team meetings to not getting a gift to celebrate Kakashi's promotion.



Gaara and Neji got over their issues even though at one time they acted no better than Obito is now minus earth destroying power.

Hinata and Naruto, for all the crap they went through in their early years chose to improve themselves regardless of how people thought them.

Sakura while 'tripping' all over the place is finally showing her true potential as Tsunade's student.

And as much as I hate to admit this next example, even Sasuke seems to have pulled his head out of his @$$.(Lets be honest, he'll probably ram his head right back up there after Obito is taken care of) That's a hell of a lot more growth than Obito has ever done!



Obito for all intents and purposes had the best early life than all of the above(except Sakura who came from 'average family without the drama'), had the best teacher possible, hung around a girl he was crushing obsessing over, and managed to Talk no Jutsu one stubborn ninja by the name of Kakashi into becoming a better person. And everything went to crap and what does he do? He betrays his teacher, teammate, and memory of his dead teammate in an attempt at blowing up/changing the world even though he knew the truth that Rin willingly sacrificed herself so she wouldn't destroy Kohona against her will which Obito tried to do himself very willingly later on!

^Something I wrote in another forum.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Bubbles on Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:00 am

I never understood why Obito blamed the world for what happened anyway. He should have been known it wasn't right to have little kids out their fighting. Only when Rin died, now he cares. He didn't give two fucks before.




This is why I can't take the "It's not only about Rin" and "he's doing it because he feels the world is shit." Seriously.

Right, but he didn't feel like caring about all that until Rin died, and even though he himself said the dreamworld sounded stupid he couldn't even understand it, when Rin died, that's when he decided he'd do anything to see her again and change the world. Even though he still had his sensei and Kakashi there who could have used a miracle like their teammate coming back from the dead after the tragedy of Rin. Oh and yeah, "Uchiha Madara is underground somewhere, thought you guys should know" Instead, he followed Madara's plan.

Not because he's always had this powerful belief (if he did, he wouldn't have decided to follow Madara's forced dreamworld plan, instead of coming up with his own ideas.) But because Rin died and he was now "in hell." I don't blame him for being upset and angry. But I do blame him for taking it out on everyone else and tarnishing Rin's memory, marking her as a fake, as well as his old friend and the entire world is just fake to him now. He seems delusional to me, real mental case. He shouldn't have spent all that time down their listening to Madara's crazy little ideas. He should have escaped like he said he would, but when his ideal world of rejoining his comrades went to naught, he changed his mind?

It was his choice to follow Madara, nobody else's.

Spoiler:
All this being said, I think it's actually a pretty good idea that Kishi decided to have FV be someone who once took Naruto's path but strayed from it. Naruto vs. Naruto in a way. Who better to fight with than someone just as determined and stubborn as he is? Good Naruto vs Rouge "Naruto." Both gather strength from comrades or the memory of comrades.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Strawberry on Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:58 am

J Ken wrote:^ Really? Sorry I don't really remember when it happened. Was shown it during the Kabuto fight or the 4 Hokage meeting? Yeah but Sasuke's desires were solely revenge but never to destroy existence. Had he been manipulated for that then he most likely would have ended up worse then Obito.

At that point Obito was extremely desperate and selfish, he didn't want to be in a reality where the life he had before "dying" would no longer be how he wanted it to be. Even with that stuff he was still a loser and was always beat out in everything. With all those guys they at least had someone to support them during their lows or had a motivation to continue going. Aside from Gaara who's mentality was morphed into becoming a killer that killed anyone who endangered him but still had a desire to be acknowledged.

I understand why you can't take it seriously and I respect it. But remember while Sasuke had it worse he had people who supported and kept him out of the darkness and even when he was in the darkness he was only ever influenced to take revenge on the Leaf.

I had high expectations as well and the only real disappointment to me is the fact that his reasoning wasn't explained thoroughly enough and wasn't given enough detail.
No, it wasn't shown when Sasuke learned about the plan, it's only been shown he knows about it, which is why he decided to join the war. Remember there was a point where Sasuke also wanted to destroy Konoha. Also, that is the problem I have with Obito. That he wants to destroy everything over one chick. Him wanting to destroy existence makes no sense.

Obito was beat out in everything, but he had friends. He had his sensei, he had his clan, he had his family. He decided to turn his back on them once Rin died. Obito doesn't have the excuse that he "didn't have anyone". If who he had was Madara, it was because he CHOSE him over everyone else. That's why I compared him to Sasuke, because Sasuke also chose Orochimaru over everyone else he had left.

I am disappointed because Kishimoto has shown me he can make tragic back stories. He could've made Obito's story a lot more believable. That's all.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Bubbles on Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:34 pm

It would have been more belieable if Kishi had shown that despite his friends and family, that his family maybe mocked him for being the loser Uchiha, were hard on him, that his relationship with both his sensei and friend were rocky at best, that Rin was truly the only one he connected to and such. But no.

We didn't get any of that, so it's hard for me to empathize or understand his actions. I feel like, as Strawberry said, he chose Madara over his clan, over his friends, over his village, all because Rin died.

Sasuke may have chosen Orochimaru for power, but before Obito got involved, He planned on killing Itachi and again if not for Obito, Naruto and them would have found Sasuke and brought him back to the village. Obito had his chance to leave Madara and go back but when he saw Rin die, he backtracked and went mental.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by racefan1992 on Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:06 pm

Graeystone wrote:



Gaara and Neji got over their issues even though at one time they acted no better than Obito is now minus earth destroying power.

Hinata and Naruto, for all the crap they went through in their early years chose to improve themselves regardless of how people thought them.

This right here. If there were any people who could have/stayied/went to the darkiness, those 4 all could have. But they didn't. Obtio has no excuse for staying in the darkness and "f**k the world" attitude when he has friends, a family and people that cared about him.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Haru Glory on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:18 am

I understand how you all feel about how Obito could have left Madara but remember he's Naruto's parallel. He snapped and decided to follow that plan for everyone else they at least had someone to keep them from pursuing the wrong choice. Him wanting to create a new world where he can be happy is in a way like how Naruto was obsessed in returning to the memories of Team 7 and wanted to destroy himself in retrieving Sasuke to be happy.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Irielo on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:27 am

J Ken wrote:I understand how you all feel about how Obito could have left Madara but remember he's Naruto's parallel. He snapped and decided to follow that plan for everyone else they at least had someone to keep them from pursuing the wrong choice. Him wanting to create a new world where he can be happy is in a way like how Naruto was obsessed in returning to the memories of Team 7 and wanted to destroy himself in retrieving Sasuke to be happy.
Yes, Obito has some similarities with Naruto: Obito in the beginning was not very skillful, he was outgoing and he had the dream to become Hokage but he was not an orphan as far as I know or assume. And he did not suffer during his childhood of rejection in opposition to Naruto. And Naruto is not someone who is going to lie to himself. He said that he hates "people who lie to themselves".

Naruto wanted to bring the memories of Team 7 back but in a genuine and real way, not like Obito who is fooling himself with an illusion.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Haru Glory on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:35 am

^ That's true but Naruto's way while much more genuine was still selfish since he tried to force everyone to not do anything to Sasuke who was just causing mayhem everywhere. He did it out of his own selfish desire to return to the good times of Team 7. Just like how Obito was selfish enough to throw away everyone to create a illusion world. None of Obito or Naruto are lying to themselves but they are obsessed with achieving their goals to realize how foolish they are.

Naruto forcing Sasuke to return to the Leaf despite leaving of his own free will doesn't sound very really honestly.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Irielo on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:51 am

^ Naruto has tried to bring back to his senses someone he considers as a brother. And this someone is still alive, so there is still hope, according to Naruto, to redeem Sasuke.

Moreover, Naruto did not act in a violent way when he was taking Sasuke's defense: he was badly beaten by Karui and he humiliated himself in front of the Raikage.

Obito wants to live in an illusion by bringing a fake Rin through the GMEP because he can't accept what happened, he can't accept the past.

Naruto has the nostalgia of Team 7 but he still has hope for the future. Sasuke is not dead and he still can be brought back.

Spoiler:
That's how Naruto can surpass Jiraiya too. The latter wanted to change Orochimaru but he failed... What about Naruto and Sasuke? The future will tell.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Haru Glory on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:57 am

^I understand what you mean and while his hope for the future and wanting to save Sasuke is pretty noble Naruto himself has stated that he is selfish when it comes to protecting his friends.

Their determination to acquire their happiness is the same honestly since they are both obsessed and unwilling to stop no matter what it's just how they do it that and what they hope to accomplish from their obsessions that really differentiates them.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Irielo on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:04 am

J Ken wrote:^I understand what you mean and while his hope for the future and wanting to save Sasuke is pretty noble Naruto himself has stated that he is selfish when it comes to protecting his friends.

Their determination to acquire their happiness is the same honestly since they are both obsessed and unwilling to stop no matter what it's just how they do it that and what they hope to accomplish from their obsessions that really differentiates them.
Nevertheless, it is still more realistic as far as Naruto is concerned: Sasuke is still alive. Rin is no more. And will be Obito really happy in case his plan worked? That would contradict himself because he stated something like he does not feel anything anymore as if his heart were dead. What remains is only this picture from Rin which comes again and again.

And don't tell me that Naruto thinks about Sasuke 24/24...
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Haru Glory on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:14 am

I'm not sure honestly. He has so many speeches that I forget. :p I think I remember him saying that everyone's dreams would become true and that the peace, hope and everything else would not exist anymore. Though in his illusion to Kakashi he basically showed his old self and Rin in the same way they were so I'm not sure if he wants to be with Rin romantically in the genjutsu world or just be with her in general. That's true no denying that it is always a Rin picture.

Not 24/7 but a majority of the time Sasuke is basically all Naruto thinks about. In the same way with Obito and Rin, he thinks about her a lot and remembers her but she isn't the only thing he talks about.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Irielo on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:28 am

J Ken wrote:Not 24/7 but a majority of the time Sasuke is basically all Naruto thinks about. In the same way with Obito and Rin, he thinks about her a lot and remembers her but she isn't the only thing he talks about.
Are you leaning to a NaruSasu thing... lol? You remember what Hinata told Naruto during the proud failure speech that even though Naruto might fall, he would stand up again. That's it. He wanted to bring Sasuke back because he failed the first time and he did not want to accept that too.

Anyway, since the last chapters, since the man with the mask has been revealed to be Obito, there has been a constant growth of Rin in Obito's references. And the "because you let Rin die" disappointed many. Now, only the future can tell if everything he did was really for Rin or if he is truly thinking of an idealistic world for everybody.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Bubbles on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:48 am

I'm just praying Obito pulls a Lelouch on us or something. Perfect atmosphere.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Strawberry on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:59 am

J Ken wrote:I understand how you all feel about how Obito could have left Madara but remember he's Naruto's parallel. He snapped and decided to follow that plan for everyone else they at least had someone to keep them from pursuing the wrong choice.
Obito being Naruto's parallel is no excuse either. Besides, Naruto had a harder time than Obito. He grew up alone and hated by everyone. Obito grew up with his clan and his family. There are similarities, but Naruto's case was a lot more extreme than Obito's. And that's the thing, it's not that Obito didn't have anyone to keep him from pursuing the wrong choice, he HAD them. He just turned his back on them.

J Ken wrote:Him wanting to create a new world where he can be happy is in a way like how Naruto was obsessed in returning to the memories of Team 7 and wanted to destroy himself in retrieving Sasuke to be happy.
The big difference is, Naruto wants Sasuke himself back. His friend with all his issues and all his hatred. Naruto is even willing to take on Sasuke's hatred so that he can be free from that burden and be himself again. Obito wants to create a whole different world, and not to see the girl he supposedly fell in love with, but to see his ideal version of her. Wanting things to go back to the way they were is completely different from changing EVERYTHING about the world, just so that he can be with an illusion of someone "important" to him.

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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Haru Glory on Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:06 am

Imo I think Kishi purposely gave Obito that backstory simply to show how easy it is for someone to go bad no matter how kindhearted they were or how good their life was before.
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Re: Is Obito Justified in his actions

Post by Graeystone on Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:33 pm

Irielo wrote:And Naruto is not someone who is going to lie to himself. He said that he hates "people who lie to themselves".
But he has no problem lying to others in claiming he's doing fine when in truth, he's not.
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