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Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Irielo on Fri May 02, 2014 10:12 am

Bubbles wrote:Unless one is trying to argue that losing his brother possibly could have instilled a wall of stone to his emotions that he was either incapable of, or refused to help Hinata in her own personal struggles, or that one believes that he felt that empathising to help her better herself in both skill and spirit would somehow hurt his clan, I'm not really seeing what Hiashi losing Hizashi has to do with it. 

Fair enough. Let's forget about Hizashi, then I would say that Hiashi was putting the clan's interests before his father's feelings to an extent which led him to make abstraction of his father's feelings. Or that his duties towards the clan took over his feelings as father completely knowing that, as clan heir, he had to train the one to succeed him. That's why communication is something essential in this case.

Hiashi had to hear what Neji told to Naruto to realize how his nephew was feeling but did Hinata say anything to her father or did she keep her pain for herself? Did she ever complain for the way he treated her? Did she make him understand that there was someone who helped her to keep on believing (Naruto) when it was not the case with him, her own father?

Some more interactions between them would be more than welcomed... And I personally would like to see Hinata saving her father in a critical situation using the Twin Lions fists leading afterwards to an emotional father to daughter interaction. But maybe it's too much asking...

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Fri May 02, 2014 12:19 pm

Actually, according the way the Naruto world happens to be, yes being a clan leader (or any leader for that matter) does excuse not being a parent. You're currently not expected to do anything that involves feelings for others at any time (ala what Sakura quoted when she was breaking that rule over Sasuke being dead and also demonstrated many times by a variety of characters within the series). It's especially true for the leaders in this series who with very few exceptions are all hard-nosed and come across as unfeeling if you take them at face value instead of looking deeper into their cores. It's the same reason why many things that happen in the story are not to be held against characters as far as I'm concerned (and yes, I do think all characters to some extent aren't given a fair shot by some people--and each person does it to a different character or characters). Of course, I'm someone who does believe a person's environment matters when taking into account their character. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to follow the Naruto series due to how approximately 98% of the characters do things that should be considered unforgivable if discussed out of context of the Naruto world.

Hiashi never said that he didn't care if Hinata died (and a bunch of his actions as well as what he'd been waiting for years to be able to do for Neji doesn't jive with the idea that Hiashi doesn't care about Hinata or anyone in his family on a personal level). That's what I mean by taking his words out of context (similar to the constant refrain of Naruto plans on changing the Hyuuga clan while completing ignoring that Naruto only said that he'd attempt to do that if Neji considered it too difficult). Hiashi just said that Hinata's not important to the clan and the clan is not Hiashi, despite the fact that he's expected to be its mouthpiece (something that definitely gets ignored a whole lot and not just in Hiashi's case). Considering that Hinata wasn't being trained to be the next leader of the clan, she wouldn't be considered important to the clan as she was only 12 and definitely not old enough to be one of the clan elders (which at the time is the only way she'd eventually become important to the clan assuming she would be eligible to become an elder when she got older--not sure how people become elders).

The reason I pointed out that Kurenai should've pushed Hiashi is that she keeps being brought up for supposedly knowing Hinata better, which is still not supported by the manga at all and I'm pointing out something that would've happened if Kurenai did know Hinata better than Hiashi--but Kurenai doesn't. Again, Hiashi never faulted Hinata for not having a good work ethic. Hiashi only faulted Hinata for not being successful due to footwork issues. Kurenai did the exact same thing (minus pinning it on footwork issues). The two of them are the same when it comes to how they saw Hinata: a hardworking failure. If there was any difference between the two (which again isn't supported by the manga though I could understand the assumption), it would be based on the fact that one dealt with Hinata working hard but failing for nearly a decade whereas the other only dealt with it for several months. Dealing with someone who doesn't do well for years can cause an attitude that someone who has only dealt with it for a little while may not have. However, that difference in attitude is not supported by the manga--unless again one tries to take Hiashi's comments out of context.

As for the cause of Hinata's self-confidence issues, of course it stemmed from Hiashi exacerbated due to her personality. That's definitely the reason why Hinata's goal from the start of the series was to change herself (and why I scoff at those who think Hinata is so "romance"-based). That's supposed to be one of Hiashi's failings (which he shares with many characters) due to choosing to put clan ahead of family. I just don't overstate how big a deal his failing happened to be when it comes to Hinata. Of course, I'm also not bothered by it because if Hiashi was encouraging at all (especially from the get-go), Hinata would've been a much different person and probably wouldn't care for Naruto the way she does now. She wouldn't have made a connection to Naruto due to them not having a similarity of dealing with adversity caused by others.

As for why Mikoto doesn't count, she's not Fugaku. You can't bring up Mikoto's actions to compare Fugaku to Hiashi when you don't have Hiashi's equivalent to use. It's just an unfair comparison. It's similar to someone complaining that Hinata isn't as well rounded a character as Naruto based on more aspects of Naruto being shown than Hinata due to character relevance to the overall plot. I've always pointed out the unfairness of those direct comparisons. Either the comparison has to acknowledge character spotlight differences or only use things that are true to both. Fugaku to Sasuke/Itachi works as a comparison to Hiashi to Hinata/Hanabi because they're in similar positions when it comes to how they could balance position and treatment of their children. The reason I even mentioned the Minato stuff is because that is actually relevant. Leaders put the "greater good" in their mind over a single individual all the time (that's even true in our lives--one of the reasons why some people cannot be leaders). I don't give grief to any of the leaders in the Naruto series (that includes Gaara's father, who I wish would be given a name) for doing that and I'm not going to make an exception for Hiashi by giving him grief that I don't give others.

Oh, and one thing I'd like to point out, as per Hyuuga Clan traditions, Hiashi & Hizashi's father is not alive--and is definitely not the Hyuuga elder that many fan sites claim is their father. In the databook, their father is purposely blanked out (though the Hyuuga elder wasn't named if I recall correctly) and it says that the new clan leader does not take over until the previous leader dies. So, there won't be a new leader until Hiashi dies unless the Hyuuga clan really has changed their traditions.

Ah, Hyuuga-related theories that I didn't post earlier... why not. Here are a few more.

1) I think that if the clan head has more than one child (which I'm also wondering if it happens every time of if the last two generations where just lucky), that both siblings will be given an opportunity to be the next leader. The emphasis placed on strength is what makes me think this.

2) I think that if there is more than one sibling, that the "spare" sibling is not sealed until the one that becomes or will become clan head has at least one child. To me, it's either that or there's a different treatment for females vs. males because either Hinata or Hanabi should be sealed otherwise by now.

3) I don't think there's ever been any inbreeding (every pairing so far in the manga has mixed clans or has a non-clan member involved with a clan member) because the Byakugan is a naturally dominant gene.

4) I think the Caged Bird Seal was actually designed to prevent the Byakugan from being tampered in a way that would cause something but the reason for it was lost over time and it was twisted (this has actually become even more possible to me due to Kaguya, but I'm waiting to see what happens).

5) I think that Hanabi and Hinata were not close when they were younger, but have become closer during the time-skip.

6) I think that Neji's mother died before Neji was sealed (anywhere between Neji's birth to at latest a few months before Hinata's 3rd birthday) while Hinata/Hanabi's mother died around the time Hanabi was chosen to replace Hinata as heir.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Fri May 02, 2014 3:07 pm

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:Actually, according the way the Naruto world happens to be, yes being a clan leader (or any leader for that matter) does excuse not being a parent. You're currently not expected to do anything that involves feelings for others at any time (ala what Sakura quoted when she was breaking that rule over Sasuke being dead and also demonstrated many times by a variety of characters within the series).

When you're out on the field, these lessons were important because they could lead to your death otherwise. Wasting time crying or letting emotions run you can lead to issues. That's why Lee crying was scolded by Gai and he should wait until later. Hiashi showing emotion in the comfort of his own home to his daughter? I do not think that is forbidden by shinobi law.


Hiashi just said that Hinata's not important to the clan and the clan is not Hiashi, despite the fact that he's expected to be its mouthpiece (something that definitely gets ignored a whole lot and not just in Hiashi's case). Considering that Hinata wasn't being trained to be the next leader of the clan, she wouldn't be considered important to the clan as she was only 12 and definitely not old enough to be one of the clan elders (which at the time is the only way she'd eventually become important to the clan assuming she would be eligible to become an elder when she got older--not sure how people become elders).

Hinata was chosen to be the next leader of the clan. As the oldest, it has been stated in manga that the oldest takes on that duty. Only reason she was replaced was because she didn't meet Hiashi's standards. He didn't consider her important because she was a "loser" who was below in ability to her younger sister, not because she was twelve and not leader yet.


The reason I pointed out that Kurenai should've pushed Hiashi is that she keeps being brought up for supposedly knowing Hinata better, which is still not supported by the manga at all and I'm pointing out something that would've happened if Kurenai did know Hinata better than Hiashi--but Kurenai doesn't. Again, Hiashi never faulted Hinata for not having a good work ethic. Hiashi only faulted Hinata for not being successful due to footwork issues. Kurenai did the exact same thing (minus pinning it on footwork issues).

Hmm, Kurenai is only really shown to know Hinata is a hard-worker despite failing. Hiashi isn't shown to know this, therefore he knows a bit less about Hinata's core character than Kurenai. Does that mean Kurenai is now an expert on Hinata and how to raise her? I do not think so. As for the footwork thing, I do not remember this. Where is it stated Hishi was upset with Hinata for her poor footwork?


The two of them are the same when it comes to how they saw Hinata: a hardworking failure. If there was any difference between the two (which again isn't supported by the manga though I could understand the assumption), it would be based on the fact that one dealt with Hinata working hard but failing for nearly a decade whereas the other only dealt with it for several months. Dealing with someone who doesn't do well for years can cause an attitude that someone who has only dealt with it for a little while may not have. However, that difference in attitude is not supported by the manga--unless again one tries to take Hiashi's comments out of context.

Hinata herself stated she used to always cry and give up. I do not see how Hiashi could have missed this. She probably tended to do this when training because she felt she couldn't do it. And because she did this a lot, and got no kind of encouragement, just disappointment out of him, of course it ended badly.


As for the cause of Hinata's self-confidence issues, of course it stemmed from Hiashi exacerbated due to her personality. That's definitely the reason why Hinata's goal from the start of the series was to change herself (and why I scoff at those who think Hinata is so "romance"-based). That's supposed to be one of Hiashi's failings (which he shares with many characters) due to choosing to put clan ahead of family. I just don't overstate how big a deal his failing happened to be when it comes to Hinata. Of course, I'm also not bothered by it because if Hiashi was encouraging at all (especially from the get-go), Hinata would've been a much different person and probably wouldn't care for Naruto the way she does now. She wouldn't have made a connection to Naruto due to them not having a similarity of dealing with adversity caused by others.

I just don't see how it was putting the clan before the family though. How is helping her grow past her fears going to affect the clan in any way? If anything, I think it would have helped. Like maybe if he had expressed to her any worries he'd had in his past to let her know that nobody is 100% infallible and everyone gets that way sometimes but not to let it stop you, she could have been helped by him. You say it's likely Hiashi is more than what he appears right? So I'm just going off that, that he could be more than an emotionless shell.

I overstate the issue because it has yet to be properly addressed. Gaara (who is not main character), Naruto and Sasuke all got remorse or something for the past mistakes of their family, so I would like the same from Hiashi at some point.

I am both. I am bothered by it because it led to such low self esteem and pain from Hinata's part, and I feel he failed as a father to her for it. But I also appreciate how despite the pain she went through, she was able to grow from it and find someone she can find strength from, Naruto. Plus, NaruHina blossomed from it. So, finding the very good in the bad kind of thing.


As for why Mikoto doesn't count, she's not Fugaku. You can't bring up Mikoto's actions to compare Fugaku to Hiashi when you don't have Hiashi's equivalent to use. It's just an unfair comparison. It's similar to someone complaining that Hinata isn't as well rounded a character as Naruto based on more aspects of Naruto being shown than Hinata due to character relevance to the overall plot. I've always pointed out the unfairness of those direct comparisons. Either the comparison has to acknowledge character spotlight differences or only use things that are true to both.

Fair enough I suppose.

Still, he had come to Hinata's match, and we didn't even see him note her change in behavior like Kurenai did or how she'd decided to stand strong instead of running away. This is my issue. Hinata, as a child knew more about what it really takes to be strong than her own father did. She understood what true strength was. It was having the courage to get back up and try again despite failing, despite the odds and those against you. It's something she was unable to do before, something her father didn't notice even when she did it in front of him. That shows me that he doesn't see what Kurenai sees.

Hiashi has gone against the clan before (trying to die in place of his brother, teaching a branch house [Neji].) I don't see why he couldn't have been this way toward Hinata, except plot no jutsu. In any case, whether it was his stone emotions or plot, I'm mostly just waiting on further validation of their relationship. Again, I don't hate Hiashi, I don't think his actions were either justified nor right, but what's done is done I just want to see some real closure on it.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Irielo on Fri May 02, 2014 10:05 pm

I think Kishimoto's aim was to give an idea of a closed society with its own rules and traditions through the Hyuuga clan. A clan where the relationships between its members are strictly codified, be it outside or inside the house. In other words, the clan leader remains the clan leader at home as well as outdoor and this is something which has been passed down from generation to generation. Hiashi thus is just a part of this and acts only the way he learned to act and to deal with things.

Hinata was supposed to be the one he would train to become the heiress but as he considered that she was not apt, he chose to train his sister and that was, according to his leader's clan logic the better choice for the clan.

I think also that it's not just Hiashi who acts like a clan leader but the people inside the clan including Hinata sees him as such. I think Hinata herself sees her father more than a clan leader or as someone who represents the main authority. That's why, I don't think she ever dared to say something to him as a daughter because such behaviors in this kind of clan might be taboo. One can say that her crying should have talked to her father but crying is a sign of weakness and considered taboo for any Shinobi if I'm not wrong.

Now, can you imagine her crying because she was not performing well? Instead of cooling down her father, it might have convinced him that she was really too soft.

The problem lies in fact in the way of communicate: if Hiashi had been able to leave his role as clan leader for one moment and see things like a comprehensive father, he would have talked differently. If Hinata had been able to see her father not like a clan leader only but had the trust to go to him and talk to him openly, things could have been different.

Anyway, Hinata herself never complained about her dad. She could have done so while confessing for instance but she did not because she knew actually what it meant to be a member of this proud clan.

And I think this will change because if Naruto's generation incarnates the change, then Hinata might bring the change in the Hyuuga clan knowing that Neji had already started it.

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Sat May 03, 2014 12:12 am

I guess you could just chalk it up to that's how the clan works. Bleh,well that's why it needs to change. I don't think Hinata would complain about her father because she always considered herself alone to be the failure. She was the odd one out, not him. He was being a clan leader trying to get her to be suited properly for heiress. It's more likely in her eyes that she failed him by being the way she was.

But I feel like Hiashi failed her in some ways as well, which is why I want him to be the one to admit this. Hiashi knows crying is weakness, but crying is also human and happens for a reason. It all goes back to him being a stern leader and that's it, not a father to help her to gain inner strength, never considering to even do so because it's a dog eat dog world so "be tough or get left back." Even if it's your own child. Then again, Hashirama did say he would kill his own child if they messed with Konoha so I can't be too shocked.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Sat May 03, 2014 4:39 am

**never have an emergency come up** Oh well, the first version of this post was lost.

Actually, the shinobi code isn't just for out on the field (ala Zabuza who never showed Haku he cared until he was shamed into doing it by Naruto; so Haku never learned for certain that Zabuza cared until being brought back as an Edo Tensei). There are many instances of this being the case outside of exceptions, such as Naruto (and Obito, until his life was thrown into unexpected chaos that caused him to go back on his original ideals). The only ones who show real caring are those who are that way by personality. Chouza--for instance--isn't encouraging towards Chouji when we've seen him. He's been either critical or basically saying to suck it up (in fact, I wonder what would've happened if Chouji did have a sibling at times too).

As for Hinata crying, she's never shown crying in front of others. She was always alone when she cried. The only exceptions are for being happy that Naruto was okay during the Pain arc and due to Neji dying by protecting her and Naruto. If there's one thing I think is ignored about Hinata it's that she also accepts the current system in many ways (not in all ways). It's part of the reason why I think Hinata's goal was to "change herself" instead of "change the system" (and also why I think she did agree with the "we must kill Sasuke ourselves" stuff regardless of how Naruto or Sakura might feel about it).

Hiashi complained about Hinata's footwork when he was training her. That would've been shown in chapters 102-103 somewhere as that's when Neji was revealing things about the Hyuuga clan. If Hiashi thought that Hinata wasn't working hard, he would've complained about that too. Considering there aren't many clan-based ninjas that don't work hard (the Naras are pretty much your only exceptions--but they're "smart" so it gets excused as per the usual stereotype that smart people don't have to work hard; "girls" are sometimes considered exceptions for being "boy crazy," which is another stereotype though Hinata was never considered part of that crowd so it wouldn't apply to her), the chances that Hiashi thinks that Hinata doesn't work hard are extremely small. Hiashi just went with the one who could complete the tasks over the one who could not complete the tasks as far as who should be clan leader.

Hiashi said that Hinata was not important towards the clan. If Hinata isn't going to be the leader, she's not currently the leader, and she's not currently an elder, then she's not important to the clan. Hinata is just another member with her only importance being that she doesn't have the caged bird seal as a main family member (and I've always been curious as to how big the main family is because it's been implied that it's more than just Hiashi and his daughters but not elaborated on). He did not say that she wasn't important to him, regardless of the exact translation you choose to read; it's always in relation to the clan. There's a huge difference between the clan versus his personal feelings. That's one of the reasons why the Hizashi situation is so important--and it's importance is ignored when it comes to Hiashi. The Hizashi situation is the one time we saw Hiashi choose to put his own feelings ahead of the clan. The fact that this also happened before Hanabi was born makes it even more important. Hiashi got shot down immensely for the attempt and the clan won out. If the clan wins out over personal stuff, why is Hiashi going to put personal stuff over the clan? That's one of the "lessons" of the Hizashi situation: what you think/feel doesn't matter, it's the clan that matters. As the leader, Hiashi is going to be expected to model that ideal as well. Picking Hanabi, who appeared to be a better fighter, over Hinata is a no-brainer if you prioritize the clan over people's feelings. As for why Hanabi benefits the clan more than Hinata at the time, the leader has to be strong and able to do certain things (which Hinata's footwork, with the emphasis on her footwork in chapter 633 brings back to light, was keeping her from doing). If Hinata can't do it while Hanabi can, then it benefits the clan to go to the one that "can do" over the one who "can't do" regardless. The other way of looking at (which is actually personal instead of clan) is if Hiashi felt that Hizashi should've been or could've been a leader and it's not fair to automatically go to the older sibling if the younger one is actually better (merit > seniority). However, that perspective is only a potential theory as there's not enough known yet (though it's another legitimate way of seeing the Hizashi thing considering Hiashi was more than okay with dying despite Hinata not yet being old enough to actually lead the clan; she would've been trained for it with no competition due to no Hanabi as Hanabi never would've been born).

I don't need Kishimoto to elaborate on things though I'd like it. I think he gives more than enough clues and the fact that he constantly ends up reminding you that if you choose to look at things from the "worst possible way" with every character that he does elaborate on that you will end up being wrong in your perception is enough to look at things from a different perspective than face-value every time. This is especially true when it comes to any situation where someone has done something that's "bad."

Also, one major correction, Hiashi did not see Hinata's fight against Neji. The only people at the preliminaries, which was not open to the public, were Hiruzen, the proctors, the genin fighting, and the senseis of the genin fighting. That's why Kurenai would've given insight into Hinata instead of Hiashi (he wasn't there). The only other character that could've done it at the time was Shino and it wouldn't have looked good on Kurenai if Shino did it over her--though it would've looked really good for the Shino/Hinata bond.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Sat May 03, 2014 8:50 am

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:**never have an emergency come up** Oh well, the first version of this post was lost.

An emergency? Is everything alright?


Actually, the shinobi code isn't just for out on the field (ala Zabuza who never showed Haku he cared until he was shamed into doing it by Naruto; so Haku never learned for certain that Zabuza cared until being brought back as an Edo Tensei). There are many instances of this being the case outside of exceptions, such as Naruto (and Obito, until his life was thrown into unexpected chaos that caused him to go back on his original ideals). The only ones who show real caring are those who are that way by personality. Chouza--for instance--isn't encouraging towards Chouji when we've seen him. He's been either critical or basically saying to suck it up (in fact, I wonder what would've happened if Chouji did have a sibling at times too).

I don't remember much about Chouza or anything, but with Zabuza, I wouldn't say Naruto shamed him into caring. I think deep down, he already cared. What I think Naruto did was bring it to the surface. He was angry that Zabuza was speaking like he didn't give a crap despite everything Haku had done for him. Zabuza showed us he did in fact care, but it's the shinobi code which makes people act like that, to try and hide weakness. As for Haku, I'm pretty sure he didn't care either way. He loved Zabuza anyway and he was paying Zabuza back with his service because the man saved him from a life of being an orphan unwanted by anyone without purpose, to a weapon with purpose to protect and serve him. Finding out Zabuza cared too was a big bonus though.


As for Hinata crying, she's never shown crying in front of others. She was always alone when she cried. The only exceptions are for being happy that Naruto was okay during the Pain arc and due to Neji dying by protecting her and Naruto. If there's one thing I think is ignored about Hinata it's that she also accepts the current system in many ways (not in all ways). It's part of the reason why I think Hinata's goal was to "change herself" instead of "change the system" (and also why I think she did agree with the "we must kill Sasuke ourselves" stuff regardless of how Naruto or Sakura might feel about it).

Yeah, but we don't see that much of Hinata, so we can't be sure if she did not cry in front of others. I think she at least did it in front of her father sometimes. Yes, as I said in my above post, Hinata didn't see Hiashi as wrong because of the way the clan worked. She felt she was the odd one out because she wasn't performing like she should have. I'm thinking Hinata's main reason to change herself was to prove that she can do it too if she perseveres.


Hiashi complained about Hinata's footwork when he was training her. That would've been shown in chapters 102-103 somewhere as that's when Neji was revealing things about the Hyuuga clan. If Hiashi thought that Hinata wasn't working hard, he would've complained about that too. Considering there aren't many clan-based ninjas that don't work hard (the Naras are pretty much your only exceptions--but they're "smart" so it gets excused as per the usual stereotype that smart people don't have to work hard; "girls" are sometimes considered exceptions for being "boy crazy," which is another stereotype though Hinata was never considered part of that crowd so it wouldn't apply to her), the chances that Hiashi thinks that Hinata doesn't work hard are extremely small. Hiashi just went with the one who could complete the tasks over the one who could not complete the tasks as far as who should be clan leader.

I've been reading back on that chapter. When Neji was talking about hard-workers will never achieve no matter how much they do, Naruto told him to shut up and demanded to know why he sat there and called Hinata "a loser" (same word Hiashi used) despite how hard she was working. Naruto states loud and clear that anyone who calls someone a loser who is working so hard is someone he'll never forgive.

In the next panels, we see both Hiashi and Neji with long ellipses at his words, with Hinata panel underneath them. I feel like this might come up again. It came up again with Neji, as he'd turned his thought process around, and Hiashi was shown too, and it's ironic that he was the first person we saw who referred to her as a loser despite working hard. Kishi lately has been going back to the exams to show how things have been changing, so I'm hoping we'll see that again with Hinata's dad. And Hiashi has likely been seeing her progress, so I'm hoping we'll go back to his previous words to show us how he feels now that Hinata has really improved and was never a loser to begin with.


Hiashi said that Hinata was not important towards the clan. If Hinata isn't going to be the leader, she's not currently the leader, and she's not currently an elder, then she's not important to the clan. Hinata is just another member with her only importance being that she doesn't have the caged bird seal as a main family member (and I've always been curious as to how big the main family is because it's been implied that it's more than just Hiashi and his daughters but not elaborated on). He did not say that she wasn't important to him, regardless of the exact translation you choose to read; it's always in relation to the clan.

Well, Hiashi did appoint Hinata a bodyguard while he left Konoha with Hanabi to train. Whether that means that she is still important by being a main branch or if he thought she'd need one so her byakugan wouldn't get snatched since he finds her weak or something, I don't know. I'm pretty sure it's the former however since he didn't know Pain would attack and they are in the village, as far as he knows, pretty protected, so that leads me to believe as his daughter and main branch, she still is "royalty" in a sense.


There's a huge difference between the clan versus his personal feelings. That's one of the reasons why the Hizashi situation is so important--and it's importance is ignored when it comes to Hiashi. The Hizashi situation is the one time we saw Hiashi choose to put his own feelings ahead of the clan. The fact that this also happened before Hanabi was born makes it even more important. Hiashi got shot down immensely for the attempt and the clan won out. If the clan wins out over personal stuff, why is Hiashi going to put personal stuff over the clan? That's one of the "lessons" of the Hizashi situation: what you think/feel doesn't matter, it's the clan that matters. As the leader, Hiashi is going to be expected to model that ideal as well. Picking Hanabi, who appeared to be a better fighter, over Hinata is a no-brainer if you prioritize the clan over people's feelings.

Yes, but this is why the Hizashi situation I find different. Hizashi dying wouldn't harm the clan as much because it was Hizashi's duty to protect Hiashi, not the other way around. Hiashi was also their leader, they cannot lose him over a protector, that's where clan over feelings come in. Hiashi was the one whose head Kumo ordered to have to begin with, but the Hyuga clan protected that by having Hizashi, as branch house, do it.

This was how their clan has been set up. But Hinata having low confidence has nothing to do with Hyuga Clan, it's more of a personal issue that can be solved with proper help. She found her help in Naruto and has come far in learning the 64 palms within 2 years or so and has made her own jutsu on top of it which she was able to combine with it as soon as she got down her palms.  Hizashi couldn't have avoided his situation at that point because from the moment he was born second, he was branded to protect his older brother. Hinata wasn't branded from birth to have low self confidence, it just happens in life sometimes, and she needed to find that motivation. Naruto ended up being it, because Hiashi wasn't.


As for why Hanabi benefits the clan more than Hinata at the time, the leader has to be strong and able to do certain things (which Hinata's footwork, with the emphasis on her footwork in chapter 633 brings back to light, was keeping her from doing). If Hinata can't do it while Hanabi can, then it benefits the clan to go to the one that "can do" over the one who "can't do" regardless. The other way of looking at (which is actually personal instead of clan) is if Hiashi felt that Hizashi should've been or could've been a leader and it's not fair to automatically go to the older sibling if the younger one is actually better (merit > seniority). However, that perspective is only a potential theory as there's not enough known yet (though it's another legitimate way of seeing the Hizashi thing considering Hiashi was more than okay with dying despite Hinata not yet being old enough to actually lead the clan; she would've been trained for it with no competition due to no Hanabi as Hanabi never would've been born).

Yes, and the other emphasis on Hinata's footwork was that in order to do it, one must step forth without fear. But Hinata's greatest weakness was her fear back then. She had low self confidence and didn't like failing, but felt like a failure. When you try and fail all the time, you'll fear to continue doing so. Hinata needed confidence to be able to properly perform the palms. Even before she finished them, she felt she was at her limit because her footwork messed up. Yet upon remembering Neji's words about stepping forth without fear and Naruto's reassuring hand-squeeze (confidence and reassurance) she was able to complete it.


I don't need Kishimoto to elaborate on things though I'd like it. I think he gives more than enough clues and the fact that he constantly ends up reminding you that if you choose to look at things from the "worst possible way" with every character that he does elaborate on that you will end up being wrong in your perception is enough to look at things from a different perspective than face-value every time. This is especially true when it comes to any situation where someone has done something that's "bad."

Hmm, I didn't really think I was looking at it from the worst possible way though. I just felt that Hinata needed confidence in herself, but she wasn't getting any kind of help from home as I feel she should have, so she had to find it elsewhere. I'd just chalk it up to the Hyuga believing one has to be strong no matter what, that you can't just give in when you feel you can't do it, and if you do, nobody is going to pick you up and help, you'll just get left behind. It's harsh, but I guess that's a slap in the face for the reality of how she'll fare in their world.

I'm just glad she found someone who she sees has no help either and yet kept pushing to prove everyone wrong, and eventually, he consistently did. She saw he maintained confidence in himself on the outside, despite his feelings on the inside, much unlike herself. Hinata admiring him because of his strength to get back up when she herself felt she never could, is what separated him from her, and aspired her to be the same way, and the more I think about this and discuss about the Hyuga and her life and stuff, I get even more NaruHina feels. x3


Also, one major correction, Hiashi did not see Hinata's fight against Neji. The only people at the preliminaries, which was not open to the public, were Hiruzen, the proctors, the genin fighting, and the senseis of the genin fighting. That's why Kurenai would've given insight into Hinata instead of Hiashi (he wasn't there). The only other character that could've done it at the time was Shino and it wouldn't have looked good on Kurenai if Shino did it over her--though it would've looked really good for the Shino/Hinata bond.

Ah yes, that's right.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Batokusanagi on Sat May 03, 2014 8:54 am

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:The only things Hiashi has ever said about Hinata are that her footwork needs work
No, he said other things about her. Worse things.

If the only things that Hiashi had a problem with when it comes to Hinata are her footwork and that Hanabi performed better than her (when Hanabi is clearly fighting/training hard), Hiashi doesn't think that Hinata isn't a hardworker. Hiashi knows she works hard as it's something clearly implied by the fact that he doesn't say that Hinata isn't a hardworker. Hiashi also knows that Hinata fails constantly. Kurenai said both of those two things: Hinata works hard but fails. The two have the same perspective on that front, which is why I don't see Kurenai as having some insight that Hiashi didn't have (unless learning that Hinata is interested in Naruto--which Kurenai only figured out at the Chuunin exam preliminaries--gets to count). The only character that seemed to have insight others didn't have on Hinata is Naruto (of course Naruto was oblivious to social stuff to balance out his ability to see Hinata's potential).
In the page I posted above he calls Hinata a loser, not only unnecessary to the Hyuuga. I'll say that again, he called a loser. In a very offensive manner, like Neji calling Naruto a loser; it's meant as in "hopeless", not as in "you fall, but you get back up". Hiashi didn't see any potential at all in Hinata which is why he didn't care about training her and maybe exploring that potential. Kurenai on the other hand did not, as was shown, at least knowing that Hinata tried hard and wanted to change herself, which Hiashi didn't care a damn about and couldn't be bothered to help with. As Naruto said, Hinata wasn't acknowledged despite being a member of the main family.
Compared to a guy who completely ignored Hinata (and Neji) until he told Neji the truth about Hizashi (what softened him up a little), Kurenai, who at least didn't abandon Hinata. I would definitely put Kurenai as the person who knew Hinata better.

Hiashi didn't put someone else in charge of training Hinata at all, unless you mean the academy and have a similar theory to mine. Kurenai wasn't put in charge of Hinata due to Hiashi though. Hinata, as a graduating student in the academy, was assigned to Team 8.
Yes, he did. It's right there in the manga: Hiashi tells Kurenai personally to take care of Hinata's training because he didn't want to do it himself.
Spoiler:

The only thing Hiashi has ever been shown doing/saying that could be considered cold is the fact that he said to Kurenai that Hinata isn't considered important to the clan (of course it doesn't help that it's been twisted to be "Hinata was disowned" a lot of times--if she was disowned, she wouldn't live in the Hyuuga compound nor still be part of the main branch which caused Neji to continue to dislike her back then for that last reason). What's ignored is that Hiashi said that in response to Kurenai's claim that Hinata is supposed to be heir and Hiashi was correcting Kurenai's perception of the situation (of course, this does support the idea that heir goes to the academy but isn't allowed to become a genin--which is another theory of mine). Yeah, it stinks that Hinata clearly overheard it too but that phrasing wasn't said directly to Hinata. I can't prove Hiashi never said anything that mean to Hinata to her face, but no one can prove that Hiashi did say something that mean to Hinata to her face either.
In the page I posted above he calls Hinata a loser. Only her footwork bothered him about her? Really?
If he said to her face or not, doesn't excuse saying it in the first place, so I'm really baffled you think that's okay at all.

I just think it requires taking pretty much one scene a bit out of context to the exclusion of all other evidence to the contrary to make Hiashi out as someone who he really isn't. There's a lot more to him than he's sometimes given credit for. But he's most definitely a clan leader before a father... until Hinata finally started showing promise because it became easier to be "both."
I'm not taking any scene out of context, simply not pretending that Hiashi meant anything else than what he actually said (like , as you said: Hiashi sending Hinata to become a genin because he supposedly saw potential in her, instead of, as Hiashi says, that Hinata was a loser and he just didn't care about her). As for evidence of the contrary, there's really none. You can claim that maybe things happened off-panel that redeem Hiashi's actions somehow and show how much insight Hiashi had about Hinata, but to say anything with confidence we only have what is actually shown in-panel.
Hiashi was definitely a clan leader, but I wouldn't say he was a father. For him Hanabi and Hinata were only important to him as assets to the Hyuuga.

P.S. Hiashi isn't a deadbeat dad. Deadbeat dad's don't provide food, clothing, shelter, etc. to their children. Hiashi did all of that for Hinata, even when he was saying that she's unnecessary to the clan. ;P
Neglecting your children emotionally to the poing where they basically hate themselves makes you as much of a deadbeat dad as one didn't provide economically.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Yamasaki Akaiko on Sat May 03, 2014 1:14 pm

Things are cool now. Thanks for the concern. :)
----

I'm going to address Batokusanagi first because he's proving my point about reading things out of context. Since I can't open the spoiler, I'm going to assume that you're referring to this. Don't take part of the comment, read it in full: "Do what you wish... Hyuuga doesn't need her... a loser below in ability to this 5-year younger Hanabi. Is that it? Please leave, you're in the way."

Nowhere in that entire phrase does Hiashi say "I don't need her" or "I don't care about her" or "I'm turning her over to you" etc. Hiashi puts the focus on "Hyuuga" which refers to the clan, not himself. You choose to see it as Hiashi speaking for himself instead of the clan despite the only reference is to the clan itself and nothing says he's talking for himself. It's your choice to view it in that context (but admit that you're ignoring the clan reference), but considering everything we've learned since then (mainly the Hizashi stuff) I'm sure that you'll be incorrect in that perception. I don't believe in things that might have happened off panel. I just know how Kishimoto writes considering I thought just about every character in this series was either a jerk or insufferable brat--that includes all the major characters (I hated Naruto, Sasuke, & Sakura to start the series, but learned to love all three actually). In every instance, Kishimoto has eventually shown why they were that way and/or that your face-value perception of how "evil/jerk/insufferable/etc." is completely wrong. I don't need for Kishimoto to elaborate more on Hiashi than he already has (via the Chuunin exam finals & the war itself) to know that Hiashi is a lot more complicated than you're giving him credit for being and nowhere near cold-hearted (he's not a "lovable" type, but he's not uncaring either)--and that any of several "nicer" interpretations of the scene will be the correct one. The only reason I hope for elaboration is just to know when Hizashi was sealed (as that's potentially a very important piece of info to explain why Hanabi & Hinata are both unsealed) and to be able to have a page to link to from the manga instead of having to string a variety of scenes together in pieces to determine what's been going on (ala what I currently have to do when it comes to Naruto's feelings on Hinata and had to do for over a year in debates when it came to Hinata's feelings for Naruto--chapter 437 was awesome in 2009; can't wait until this war ends to get the other side).

I don't know how you got the idea that I think Hiashi allowed Hinata to become a genin because he saw potential in her because that's not what I think happened at all. Hinata was going to become a ninja because she happens to be a Hyuuga (she's from a big-time ninja clan). Hinata was just in the unique position to either become the next leader or just another Hyuuga ninja (like Neji). Since Hinata was bypassed in terms of being the heir, Hinata had to become just another Hyuuga ninja, which would obviously mean first becoming a genin before moving up the ranks. Considering how many Hyuuga ninjas exist in Konoha (we got to learn of quite a few more by name actually between the Pain arc and the war itself), that's not really anything special.

"Loser" is code for "failure" or "someone not able to do [insert whatever]." If it's been routinely established that Hinata constantly fails, then I'm not going to be bothered by that term being used when speaking about her, especially when it wasn't said to her face by Hiashi. Additionally, yes, who Hiashi was talking to does matter as well as whether or not Hinata was supposed to hear it. There's very few people in this world (or in fiction) that don't say things differently depending on who they are talking to and/or who they are expecting to hear what they're saying. The only reason I even consider the "loser" comment to even be remotely "bad" is due to the fact that Naruto takes more exception to being called a "loser" than a "failure." I'll admit that I don't understand how being called a "loser" is supposed to be worse than "failure" but I do accept that "loser" is worse than "failure" in the Naruto world.

As for the emotional neglect (which is definitely true), get a different word/phrase then. A deadbeat dad is only due to economic reasons and the definition of the phrase doesn't change just because you want it to do so. I stretched it enough for you using it out of context (because "deadbeats" have court orders and stuff to deal with), but I can't take you seriously if you're going to do that. ;P

-----

Chouza isn't seen much, but Chouji had some flashbacks during the war (as well as how Chouza was talking about Chouji in a not nice way as "motivation" due to Chouji freezing up--until Chouji did something no Akimichi has ever done; it stopped completely after that). As I say, niceness doesn't come from many people in this series.

However, you're misunderstanding my point with Naruto shaming. I'm not saying that Naruto caused Zabuza to care. I'm saying that it took Naruto for Zabuza to admit that he cared in a way that everyone could see and could no longer be denied. I'm saying that the same thing happens constantly and it'll be true for Hiashi (though it really shouldn't be as surprising as many are going to make it out to be) as well ala Gaara's parents & Yashamaru. Showing that you are concerned is just not done by many characters in this series regardless of the situation.

As for the Hizashi thing, let me explain something that I'm not sure has come across since you are focusing on how Hizashi dying didn't hurt the clan. Hizashi dying in place of Hiashi hurt Hiashi, not the clan. That's where the fact that personal feelings losing to out to clan priorities is a big deal. If the lesson one learns is that clan priorities trump personal feelings, then it doesn't matter how Hinata feels, it doesn't matter how Hiashi feels, it doesn't matter how Hanabi feels, it doesn't matter how anyone feels. The clan's priorities are much more important. In that environment, why is Hiashi obligated to change to assist Hinata? He's not unless he had no choice. If Hinata was Hiashi's only child, Hiashi would've tried harder for Hinata because it would benefit the clan. But, Hiashi had a choice because Hanabi is there and seems to be much better.

Actually, I think Hinata's low confidence had everything to do with the Hyuuga clan, including how she internalized the opinions of those within the clan (particularly Hiashi) when it comes to her skills. Hinata is not someone who responds well to "tough love," but that's Hiashi's personality at work (similar to many others).

That's why I think it matters greatly the fact that unless your feelings helped the clan that they're ignored no matter who you are, even the clan leader. Hiashi dying wouldn't have caused the Hyuuga clan to collapse or something, but it would've given Kumo an advantage in a future war against Konoha. Hizashi was okay with dying because he saw it as protecting his brother first and foremost even though he was going to leave his own only son alone without a parent (or with only his mother, though I'm of the opinion that Neji's mom was dead before Hizashi, but I won't be bothered if it's revealed that she was still alive at the time). However, again, I can't go along with pushing the idea that it's okay that Hiashi's feelings get ignored because "it's for the better of the clan/Konoha" but it's not okay that Hinata's feelings get ignored because "it's better for her." As far as the clan/Konoha is concerned, it doesn't matter who is the heir between Hinata or Hanabi because either way one of them would be heir and the other would be a ninja of the village. Considering how the story has developed (but of course a lot of things would be different if Hinata was the heir, including the fact that she never would've been on Team 8 in the first place), it's actually been for Konoha's (and the world) benefit that Hinata was bypassed due to her relationship with Naruto.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Sat May 03, 2014 6:55 pm

Yamasaki Akaiko wrote:Things are cool now. Thanks for the concern. :)

Oh, well good then. I'm glad for that. :3


Chouza isn't seen much, but Chouji had some flashbacks during the war (as well as how Chouza was talking about Chouji in a not nice way as "motivation" due to Chouji freezing up--until Chouji did something no Akimichi has ever done; it stopped completely after that). As I say, niceness doesn't come from many people in this series.

During the war he told him to "man up" and be an Akamichi, but I didn't see any flashbacks of Chouza not speaking to Choji in a 'not nice' way. He did tell him that he lacked confidence and told him it was his time to take the oath. He was stern, but it's not like he was calling him a loser or anything.


However, you're misunderstanding my point with Naruto shaming. I'm not saying that Naruto caused Zabuza to care. I'm saying that it took Naruto for Zabuza to admit that he cared in a way that everyone could see and could no longer be denied. I'm saying that the same thing happens constantly and it'll be true for Hiashi (though it really shouldn't be as surprising as many are going to make it out to be) as well ala Gaara's parents & Yashamaru. Showing that you are concerned is just not done by many characters in this series regardless of the situation.

I don't think Hiashi needs anyone else. He sees the progress with his own eyes, he can easily reflect on his past words by himself by just looking at her and seeing how much she's grown.


As for the Hizashi thing, let me explain something that I'm not sure has come across since you are focusing on how Hizashi dying didn't hurt the clan. Hizashi dying in place of Hiashi hurt Hiashi, not the clan. That's where the fact that personal feelings losing to out to clan priorities is a big deal. If the lesson one learns is that clan priorities trump personal feelings, then it doesn't matter how Hinata feels, it doesn't matter how Hiashi feels, it doesn't matter how Hanabi feels, it doesn't matter how anyone feels. The clan's priorities are much more important. In that environment, why is Hiashi obligated to change to assist Hinata? He's not unless he had no choice. If Hinata was Hiashi's only child, Hiashi would've tried harder for Hinata because it would benefit the clan. But, Hiashi had a choice because Hanabi is there and seems to be much better.

Well, of course it hurt Hiashi. It was his brother. But I still don't see what that has to do with Hinata and Hiashi. Hizashi had to die, it was his duty as branch house, it's basically his job within the clan to protect them, he would have had to leave Neji, it wasn't a choice. Hiashi could have chosen to continue his work on Hinata and try a more adaptive approach, or he could just quit on her and choose to train Hanabi instead, who had no confidence issues.

But was this decision best for the clan or for Hiashi? Hanabi seemed better, but that was based off of what? Her confidence? Now that Hinata has that, who is best now? In less than 3 years, with her growing confidence, she's mastered a move all her own, one she felt best to use against someone who demolished her village and who quickly attacked her in order to not get hit by it. She's strong enough to him now to be suited to stand beside Neji to protect him. Again, only 2.5 years after he tossed her, look how much she's improved.

So was it really the best choice? Who is to say him changing his tactic wouldn't be best for the clan? He didn't know that, we don't know that because he didn't even bother to do it to begin with. It's just as possible that him doing that would have helped the clan rather than hurt it.


Actually, I think Hinata's low confidence had everything to do with the Hyuuga clan, including how she internalized the opinions of those within the clan (particularly Hiashi) when it comes to her skills. Hinata is not someone who responds well to "tough love," but that's Hiashi's personality at work (similar to many others).

Well I am certain that upon hearing her own father, someone who is supposed to love you more than the outside world, call you a loser who is useless to the clan, that her esteem plummeted to the floor. It's one thing if people outside don't believe in you, but when your own father doesn't?


That's why I think it matters greatly the fact that unless your feelings helped the clan that they're ignored no matter who you are, even the clan leader. Hiashi dying wouldn't have caused the Hyuuga clan to collapse or something, but it would've given Kumo an advantage in a future war against Konoha. Hizashi was okay with dying because he saw it as protecting his brother first and foremost even though he was going to leave his own only son alone without a parent (or with only his mother, though I'm of the opinion that Neji's mom was dead before Hizashi, but I won't be bothered if it's revealed that she was still alive at the time).

Hinata's negative feelings about herself might not help, but whose to say Hiashi's positive influence over her with the words she needed to hear wouldn't have helped her enough for it to end up becoming essential to the clan? By helping her, he could also be helping the clan right? And Hinata's gentle nature is something different. It could definitely bring something new and improved for their clan.

However, again, I can't go along with pushing the idea that it's okay that Hiashi's feelings get ignored because "it's for the better of the clan/Konoha" but it's not okay that Hinata's feelings get ignored because "it's better for her." As far as the clan/Konoha is concerned, it doesn't matter who is the heir between Hinata or Hanabi because either way one of them would be heir and the other would be a ninja of the village. Considering how the story has developed (but of course a lot of things would be different if Hinata was the heir, including the fact that she never would've been on Team 8 in the first place), it's actually been for Konoha's (and the world) benefit that Hinata was bypassed due to her relationship with Naruto.

I'm not ignoring Hiashi's feelings. It's just that his feelings weren't the issue, it was the established rules within the clan that the branch house must protect the main house. If he felt sad because his brother died, well that just shows he's human and has feelings, but Hiashi's death would have caused more issues than his brothers. I have yet to see any example of what Hiashi working with Hinata continuously to improve herself instead of dumping her off would possibly do negatively to the clan.

Yes, he had another choice, but having another choice doesn't make it the right choice. Maybe the easier one, but not necessarily the "right" one. You put the clan over family when it is most likely to affect it in a negative fashion. But as I said earlier, Hiashi has no idea who is best suited. They were still children and now look at how much she has improved.

We still don't know where Hanabi is, but Hinata has been acknowledged by her father to an extent for being stronger. He even felt comfortable having Hinata alongside him with Neji and told Naruto not to worry about Hinata because the Hyuga are the strongest in the leaf village. That shows me how much his thoughts must have changed. I still want to see what he thinks internally though.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Irielo on Sat May 03, 2014 11:40 pm

You are all bringing interesting points people and this debate is just awesome.

Before putting the blame on Hiashi regarding Hinata's issues, I think one should focus on Hinata. After her match against Neji, she was lying on the ground and Naruto came to her and she asked the latter if she had been able to change herself according to him. During her confession, she also suggested that she needed to change...

I think when she said that she used to cry, she was somehow pointing out her hypersensitivity which is something that might have handicapped her while being trained by her father as the next clan's leader. I guess it was not something easy to be the one succeeding at the head of the Hyuuga clan. Her hypersensitivity combined with a lack of confidence resulting from not being able to perform, for instance the footwork, did not help her at all.

She was thus depressed not to meet the expectations for someone who was assigned to become clan's leader. Not being able to train anymore as a next clan's leader, she had to train in the academy and was assigned to join team 8. I therefore think if Hinata failed in the Hyuuga's clan successor's training, she decided to succeed as a Shinobi formed at the academy and Naruto's example helped her a lot in that process.

Regarding the latter, he could understand her very well given what he told Neji when he fought against him. Hinata also was born with a curse: being destined to become the Hyuuga heiress and to succeed absolutely in that matter.

Unfortunately Hinata did not make it for reasons which it seems she gave to herself and not Hiashi (which could explain what she told about herself during the confession ch 437). I think now the reason why we, as readers, were shown the Kurenai/Hiashi's interaction, was to have an insight into the Hyuuga clan's world: the main/branch family issue + the heir/heiress issue. That was in fact, more to explain the world from which Hinata's come than something made to accuse Hiashi.

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by racefan1992 on Sun May 04, 2014 4:54 am

Hinata has mastered some of the clans moves without the help of her father (Neji helped complete 64 palm move) and Hinata created twin lion on her own, again without help from her father.

@Bubbles is correct here, 2.5 years later and look at where she is now. Hiashi was wrong for doing what he did all those years ago and he is dead wrong now.

Naruto has playied more a part in her growth then her father has.

Naruto says Hinata is strong, anything Hiashi says after that point is moot right off the bat.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Irielo on Sun May 04, 2014 7:52 am

^As the Hyuuga clan's leader, Hiashi's role was to train his successor. Noticing that his second daughter was performing better, he privileged Hanabi. It was thus a pragmatic choice from Hiashi at that time.

In other words, Hiashi's duty is to train the next heir/heiress. I think if he had only Hinata as daughter, he would have then trained her further but he saw that Hanabi would be better for the job.

I think no one denies that Neji helped Hinata to complete the 64 palms and that she was able to develop alone her own technique: the Twin Lion fists. No one here denies Naruto's positive role in her life neither.

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Sun May 04, 2014 8:52 am

Irielo wrote:^As the Hyuuga clan's leader, Hiashi's role was to train his successor. Noticing that his second daughter was performing better, he privileged Hanabi. It was thus a pragmatic choice from Hiashi at that time.

In other words, Hiashi's duty is to train the next heir/heiress. I think if he had only Hinata as daughter, he would have then trained her further but he saw that Hanabi would be better for the job.

I think no one denies that Neji helped Hinata to complete the 64 palms and that she was able to develop alone her own technique: the Twin Lion fists. No one here denies Naruto's positive role in her life neither.
Hanabi might have seemed better at the time, because she didn't lack the confidence Hinata did, but did it mean she was best suited overall? With Hinata's improvement, is Hanabi still best fit? I'm just saying, years of training with her dad and no improvement, but 2 years or so with the confidence boost she needed and her confidence has shot up and she's improved greatly to the point where she was even helping direct some of the alliance at one point with everyone joining forces, her improvement has even been acknowledged by her father to an extent as well as others.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Irielo on Sun May 04, 2014 9:18 am

Bubbles wrote:Hanabi might have seemed better at the time, because she didn't lack the confidence Hinata did, but did it mean she was best suited overall? With Hinata's improvement, is Hanabi still best fit? I'm just saying, years of training with her dad and no improvement, but 2 years or so with the confidence boost she needed and her confidence has shot up and she's improved greatly to the point where she was even helping direct some of the alliance at one point with everyone joining forces, her improvement has even been acknowledged by her father to an extent as well as others.

Even though Hinata improved a lot and would fulfill the requirements to become one day the Hyuuga clan's leader, I honestly don't know if Hinata would be interested... Given what she said, her goal was to change herself but she never stated that she wanted to get the place she has lost as heiress of the Hyuuga clan back. She has improved and developed a lot, and thus reached her goal and the other goal she has is to be forever by Naruto's side. That is the main issue remaining for Hinata imo. I feel that her becoming the heiress again is something optional and not something which should absolutely happen.

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by racefan1992 on Sun May 04, 2014 10:13 am

Irielo wrote:^As the Hyuuga clan's leader, Hiashi's role was to train his successor. Noticing that his second daughter was performing better, he privileged Hanabi. It was thus a pragmatic choice from Hiashi at that time.

In other words, Hiashi's duty is to train the next heir/heiress. I think if he had only Hinata as daughter, he would have then trained her further but he saw that Hanabi would be better for the job.

I think no one denies that Neji helped Hinata to complete the 64 palms and that she was able to develop alone her own technique: the Twin Lion fists. No one here denies Naruto's positive role in her life neither.

I'm not denying Neji or Naruto anything, I'm just saying.

Although if we think about it, turned out for the best: The "loser" gained confidence, proved people wrong, impressed her role model (and love interest), confessed her feelings and wishes too be by Narutos side and NH has a good shot at happening.

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Sun May 04, 2014 10:16 am

Yeah, Kishi hasn't really said anything about it, but who knows? A Hinata vs. Hanabi fight would be nice to see, and I read in the databook that Hinata's wish is for a rematch with Neji and a match with Hiashi. She wants to hear what he thinks of her now I believe and see her growth.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by NaruHina <3 on Sun May 04, 2014 10:41 am

I honestly don't want to see a Hanabi vs. Hinata fight, Fanfictions has ruined it for me... and a little bit of Hiashi vs. Hinata.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Sun May 04, 2014 11:13 am

NaruHina <3 wrote:I honestly don't want to see a Hanabi vs. Hinata fight, Fanfictions has ruined it for me... and a little bit of Hiashi vs. Hinata.
Eh, if I let fellow fans writing bother me, a lot of things would be ruined for me at this point lol. I want to see it because it would show the difference between before and now and with Hiashi, I want the same. I just think it would a nice kind of full circle ending for Hinata.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by NaruHina <3 on Sun May 04, 2014 4:00 pm

Yeah, but honestly I probably might laugh at it because of how tall Hinata is over Hanabi,but maybe she's gotten taller since the time-skip. I don't know, I rather see Hiashi and Hinata. I know Hinata probably won't win, but she'll definitely be an amazing opponent.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Bubbles on Sun May 04, 2014 6:18 pm

NaruHina <3 wrote:Yeah, but honestly I probably might laugh at it because of how tall Hinata is over Hanabi,but maybe she's gotten taller since the time-skip. I don't know, I rather see Hiashi and Hinata. I know Hinata probably won't win, but she'll definitely be an amazing opponent.
Hanabi is probably the same height Hinata was at age twelve-thirteen since she's five years apart from her. But even if she is shorter because of age difference, remember, Kakashi became a jounin around that age, so if Hanabi is gifted, any height difference won't really matter. I'd also like the fight between Hiashi and Hinata to happen.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Irielo on Sun May 04, 2014 9:36 pm

Bubbles wrote:Yeah, Kishi hasn't really said anything about it, but who knows? A Hinata vs. Hanabi fight would be nice to see, and I read in the databook that Hinata's wish is for a rematch with Neji and a match with Hiashi. She wants to hear what he thinks of her now I believe and see her growth.

To be honest, I would not mind if Hiashi seeing all the improvements of Hinata, challenged her for a match one day. That would only prove to him that Hinata was able to reach a fine level without his training... As far as Hanabi is concerned, well, I think that it's not Hanabi's fault if she was chosen instead of Hinata because of performing better at that time. Besides, I would have liked to see more interactions between the two sisters before wishing such a match.

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Twin Steps on Wed May 07, 2014 7:51 am

damn, this sure gave you guys a lot to talk a out huh? So much text....

Anyways, I agree with you irielo, I think it would be cool idf we got a Hiashi vs Hinata fight, where, if Hinata were to beat him, he'd deem her worthy of taking his place.
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Irielo on Wed May 07, 2014 7:57 am

^You know what would be cool? If Hiashi challenged Hinata for a match and the latter came to beat him, then:

Hiashi: I was wrong my daughter. Wrong not to trust you at that time. I would like you to take the lead of the Hyuuga after me...

Hinata: Thank you father. I am honored by your acknowledgment but I prefer not. Hanabi was trained all this time by you to become the heiress and I had to find my way alone. Sorry but I have different plans now...

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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

Post by Twin Steps on Wed May 07, 2014 8:09 am

I'd be fine with that, but I just really want some father daughter bonding between the two. Although I'd personally want Hinata to be the leader, so then she'd be in a possession of power just like Naruto would be (hokage) and hence she would be "equal" with Naruto and be on his level, as she's always wanted. It would also help develop her character in terms of the hyuga clan, as most of her development is romantic. I just think making hanabi the leader would just be a waste of some nice development for Hinata. Not to mention it wouldn't make sense to have someone lesser than tenten or konohamaru take hinata's place.

Tho if Hinata were not to he the leader, I'd want Neji to be the leader. (Neji is so obviously gonna get revived, its not even funny. Its so obvious)
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Re: Regarding Hinata's Childhood & The Hate She Gets

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